Pardon my ignorance but, are any of these religions (with the obvious exception of Hinduism) currently practiced? If so, are they now or has their practice ever been near the scope that the Judeo-Christian God is practiced today? I mean 3,000,000,000 people worship God today. Since I think many of us can agree that there are more people alive today than have lived in all of history, 3 billion’s got to be at least something like 10% or 20% of the entire population of ALL of humanity, WAG anyway. Add to that the 5% to 10% or whatever that worshiped him 100 years ago. And 3% to 5% or whatever previously, and so on. I wouldn’t be suprised if my god is the most worshiped god of all time. All of this is WAG of course, but I know that I’m not alone in my thinking.
prisoner, if your whole argument rests on “3 billion people can’t be wrong!” then it’s inherently flawed. The popularity of a religion doesn’t have any effect on its accuracy or correctness. If that were so, then before the Middle Ages the ROMAN religion would have been the correct one, as everyone in the Empire officially worshipped the Roman gods.
Argumentum ad populam is a logical fallacy.
Let me ask you this: if over 50% of humanity worshiped Apollo as the one true God and it was the Oldest and Longest-Lasting religion practiced today, would you then worship Apollo? What if the legend of the Christ were still circulating, but only among a few delusional cranks? Still Christain then? Or would you be Apollian because it is The Choice of The Majority?
please Magical Sky Pixie, forgive my awful spelling.
A few things:
- The comment “If you believe but are a sinner you go to hell” is patently incorrect. Every human is a sinner, period. Every human is by nature a sinner. Now, this doesn’t necessarily have to have the negative connotations many Churches give it.
To me, the way I interpret the bible, sinner is a catchall for imperfection in the eyes of the lord. It doesn’t mean you are an evil or vile person. Many of the “heroes” or “charitable” people throughout the bible were imperfect and committed sins (King David for example killed his best friend so he could take his wife, talk about being imperfect.)
I’m a very bad Catholic because I use my own interpretations far too much. I think the confessional is a good and holy thing. I do in fact think that when we as humans commit a sin intentional, and directly contradict the word and will of god we do need to confess and ask for forgiveness. But we don’t have to have forgiveness for our very nature (which is sinful) just to get into heaven.
So, indeed sinners go to heaven and in fact anyone who goes to heaven is a sinner.
(I’ve even argued that Jesus sinned, or that God sinned, when he took mortal form, I don’t really believe it that much per se but that is an excellent argument to get into.)
- Not sure which bible the OP read but I in my bible I don’t read drinking alchohol, pre marital sex, or pornography as verbotten.
I think all three can lead to sin but are not necessarily sin by nature (although again, as something that humans do, they are acts of creatures who are inherently sinful.)
Yes. All of them.
Citation on that? From what I have read, the Romans were decidely non-evangelical, and weren’t trying to convert those peoples they conquered to worship their gods. For an obvious literary reference, check the New Testament. The Jewish high priests decide that it is best to kill Jesus, and send him to Pilate hoping he will do the deed for them. Pilate tries to just brush Jesus off on the logic this is just an internal Jewish matter, but ultimately agrees and has Jesus executed.
Note that I am not a Christian, and don’t consider the Bible infallible. However, the early leaders of the Christian church were trying to convert Romans to Christianity. If everyone in the Empire officially worshipped the Roman gods, would this not be common knowledge to Romans? If so, then the NT account of the death of Jesus would have been seen as absurd. HOW could there be any Jewish high priests around to deal with Pilate? It would be a lousy way to try and convert Romans to Christianity with religious texts that were obviously absurd.
First, many people on this board used to believe and now don’t having gone through the same examination you describe. Have you tried to really understand the contradictions and absurdities in the Bible, or do you read it assuming it is true?
Second, why do we have to believe despite lack of evidence? You don’t even think this, since you gave the number of Christians as evidence of your religion’s correctness. Why couldn’t a true deity at least leave enough evidence around that the stories in the Bible are actually true?
Well, I visited http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com and frankly some of the “contradictions” are just ridiculous. Like God describing what Adam can eat then later telling him not to eat the friut of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. It’s like me telling my kids, “you can eat everything in the refridgerator except your sister’s birthday cake.” That’s not a contradiction.
Others, like the creation contradiction I believe are just misinterpretations. We don’t quite understand the language because it’s just, well, not easy to understand. For example, God tells Eve “thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee”. Now to many men, they see this as permission by God to rule over their wives. But if that were true, God would have told ADAM that he should rule over Eve. He didn’t. He told Eve. It was a warning. “Since Adam is now sinful, he will rule over you.” So, just as that subtlety is largely missed, I believe that the creation story is also misunderstood.
But some things do make me wonder, like the geneology of Joseph. Still, the basics are as relavent as if the Bible was completely perfectly without apparant contradiction. I believe in God because I can feel his presence. And I have witnessed his power in my life. If your back has been turned from him, think back, why? What started happening to make that happen? Did you talk to him about your problems with the religion? Did he answer you? Did you witness his power? Did you hear him speak? Did you consult your religious leaders for advice? Really, I believe that once you truly feel God’s presence, you cannot see any reason to turn away from him. You remember the time you heard him say to you one day, “have hope.” Or you remember something unexplained happening. Once that happens, you are hooked and nothing will convert you back to Satan or the selfish world.
Because God wants faithful people. If God poof appeared before the whole world. OF COURSE everybody would believe in him. But that wouldn’t be faith. He wants to know you trust him. You have to put your faith in him FIRST, before you can feel his presence. I know it’s circular logic. But he doesn’t reward people that don’t believe in him with his presence.
** prisoner6655321**, the flaw in your argument is that people do not really choose to believe or not believe. You cannot make yourself believe something.
I know it’s not logical. But that’s the way it is sometimes. One cannot necessarily be convinced by evidence that God exists. I’ve seen people WITNESS actual miracles, (I mean blind people seeing and crippled people walking and I don’t mean the stuff you see on TV. I mean genuine biblical type miracles witnessed and confirmed by family and friends of the people healed), and they still didn’t turn their lives around. I’m not saying it’s easy to blindly believe in something you can’t see. But it is possible. All you have to do is crack open your mind a hair, and God gets inside and shows you his presence. The more you open your mind, the easier it is, and the more you witness him. The more He becomes a part of your life, the easier it is to feel Him. It’s a snowball going downhill. All you have to do is start the pebble rolling. But it’s got to be genuine. And I guess that’s the problem. How do you genuinely keep an open mind when your analytical mind has soo much contrary evidence to work with? You have to put that evidence aside and see that those little inconsistencies in the Bible don’t matter. Even if some of the facts ARE wrong. Even if all of those contradictions are true. Even if much of the Bible is wrong, that doesn’t make God’s existence impossible. I personally know he exists because I can feel him.
I think hope is important and therefore recognise the importance of religion. At the same time, I also recognise the dangers of surrendering rational thought to this same hope. Part of the delicate balance between hope and reason that the human mind has to cope with in its short life-span, and the reason why separating State and Church is such a good thing.
What do you mean you’ve “seen people witness miracles?” Did you see these “miracles” yourself or did somebody tell you say them? If you imagine that you’ve seen this stuff yourself, what exactly did you see? What did you actually know of the condition of those who were "healed’ before the event (as opposed to being told) and what did you know about the long term condition of these people other than a a little dancing by a “cripple” at faith healing event?
Are you interested in hearing about the various mundane and completely natural explanations for how these illusions are achieved? Tell me what you think you saw and I’ll tell you what you actually saw.
prisoner6655321, I don’t think you’re too far from Guin. You say yourself, “it has to be genuine”. IOW, once you are “willing to consider it because the potential payoff is so high” – which is the valid use of Pascal’s Wager in apologetics – you still have to feel genuinely touched, to experience an internal transformation, and that is not something you can will yourself to have, it’s Grace, granted if/when God wills it.
Come now, with that last paragraph now you are affecting an air of absolute certainty.
You’re right. I said that it starts with opening your mind to the possibility that God exists. That is possible for just about anyone. But you have to genuinely be willing to consider the possibility that God exists. If he wants you to be saved, and he does, and he knows that you trust him and aren’t just testing him, he’ll put the desire to know him in your heart. You’ll start to feel him.
Well, I am absolutely certain that nothing supernatural happened, and I am just as certain that I can posit a natural explanation for any “miracles” that Prisoner thinks he saw. That may sound arrogant but really it’s nothing more than a truism. I’m certain that the impossible is impossible.
I am open to any shred of evidence you’d like to offer. What have you got?
In other words, you’ll believe it if you believe it. Complete tautology, my friend.
If he wants me to believe it he can PROVE it, otherwise he can have a nice day.
You are totally correct and not being arrogant in the least. It’s no great trick to know that nothing supernatural happened since there is no such thing as “supernatural” (beyond its existence as a word and concept). It is merely a word that describes either: (1) natural things that are misunderstood or not understood at all, or (2) fantasies, delusions and wishful thinking.
Not all the issues in that site are real, but plenty of them are. I’ve read the creation account in the original Hebrew, and it is wrong. I know that you cannot just accept that, and find all sorts of explanations for it - I’ve heard them all. That’s fine. But those who want to implement any part of the so-called word of God as law, you need to better than saying, “if red is blue, or if a day is a billion years, then it is all true.”
I’m from New York, so I’m a bit less gullible than most. Lots of people have had lots of contradictory words from god. If you ever chat with God, ask him if P = NP the next time. Our brains are wonderful things, and if you are predisposed to god belief (like most are in this culture) you will hear god say X, while they guy down the street hears god say not X. I’ve been totally god free for 30 years, and I’m doing fine, thanks.
Bull pucky. Why did God part the Red Sea? Why did God punish Moses for striking his staff on the rock, which reduced the quality of evidence for the miracle. Why did Jesus do miracles? The whole “faith” line is a feeble coverup for the evident fact that the more we know about a “miracle” the less likely it becomes. Two kinds of people ask for faith - the preaching man and the confidence man. And really good confidence men get their marks so convinced that no facts can change their minds.
So, what do you say to those to whom Allah speaks, or Krishna? How come you’re right and they’re wrong? Why is your god experience better than their’s? If they are deluded, why can’t you be deluded?
I know what would convince me - evidence. Anyone promising me great things while refusing to provide evidence makes me check my wallet and look up the number of the bunco squad.