But indeed I cannot, since we are to believe that Jewish people are a race unto themselves and that it is not just a religion.
I’ve never heard a Muslim identify it as a race. There is nothing inherently Muslim about a person, so the term “secular Muslim” has no purpose.
Former Muslims are apostates, not “secular Muslims.” Of course apostasy is traditionally punishable by death, so perhaps this is why a seemingly more palatable term is sought.
Not precisely the same way, but at the same time it’s going a bit far to call them apostates.
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That is talking about secularism of a society, not an individual.
It’s going far to kill the apostate, but if you were once a Muslim, but now do not believe in Muslim beliefs, it is the correct word. It isn’t an insult. As far as I’m concerned, it’s the complete opposite, as it indicates that you’ve managed to reject and resist brainwashing.
To be perfectly clear, there’s no reason for any of the harassment (or worse) directed at the students, and that’s frankly unacceptable. Also, like I wrote, if the school lets Sikhs do their thing, then the Muslims can also. That’s the problem, actually. Where do you draw the line? I’m an advocate of complete laicite. Religion is a choice, and it’s a choice that makes claims on reality, that have real consequences in people’s lives. Those claims also directly impact education, such as what kids learn about science and history! Schools shouldn’t kowtow to nonsense within their walls. They can’t control what happens in homes and houses of worship, but there’s no need to surrender to superstition.
Also, Muhammad was a pedophile. That hasn’t been mentioned yet.
If that culture is damaging, bigoted and, frankly, downright evil in it’s treatment of (among others) women, then hell yes I can say how they should feel about it.
What, you think I should shut up and let them mutilate their female children, refuse to allow them to learn the language of the country they live in, and otherwise treat them like utter shit? Fuck that. In this particular case, I am unambiguously right and they are wrong.
I’m well aware that all Western cultures have a way to go in treating women equally, but they are far, far better than Muslim ones. The idea that one should not criticise something if you’re not yourself perfect is more religiously motivated bullshit (motes/beams and such). It has nothing to do with race or gender, there are many, many white men out there who treat women like shit, and I’ll call them out on it as well. I’ve done it directly to friends of mine when I’ve heard them spouting MRA nonsense, I’ve done it in this thread when I criticise the teachings of those Christian churches that still tell women how to dress or refuse to allow them to preach. And I’ll continue to do it whenever I wish.
Oh, and if I actually see a situation where men are being unfairly treated, I’ll mention that as well, there are a few. Male victims of sexual or domestic violence being treated as a joke would be the big one.
I’ve heard Salman Rushdie describe himself and his family as secular Muslims. (In person even).
I’m going to give one on the best writers living who has won a Booker Prize and is an acknowledged master of using the language, who also has a deep understanding of the culture of secular Muslims in India and for whom fundamentalist Islam has had a deep impact on his life more weight when it comes to whether those words belong together.
Being a writer does not put a person in charge of the language. He writes “magical realism” fiction, already an oxymoron of sorts, not definitive language guides.
He can call himself a carnivorous vegan if he wants, but that doesn’t make it a thing. Being an apostate can have fatal consequences and his life has already been made difficult enough what with hiding from the fatwa, so trying to create the impression tht he is still a Muslim of sorts is understandable, but I have heard him call himself an atheist, also in person.
The problem I have with this phrase, beyond its self-contradictory built-in falsehood, is it does not allow anyone to reject and distance themselves from this religion. If someone wants to declare their ties to it while denouncing their belief in it with this term, they are encouraging it being slung at others who want nothing to do with it. There are already enough “secret Muslim” accusations. The accusers do not need further ammunition.
Here, for example, writer Tauriq Moosa says;
“As should be obvious to anyone who’s read me, I am very much not Muslim. I am, in fact, the furthest thing from Muslim it’s possible to be, aside from being a blind, deaf Martian: I’m an apostate, a murtat, an infidel of the worst kind (in that I’m not ashamed).”
He should not have to be called a “secular Muslim” when he says he is no kind of Muslim at all.
Jews comprise a few ethnicities (as well as some converts). Members of comparable Muslim ethnicities more commonly identify by the particular ethnic names, but they may be secular or “cultural Muslims” in exactly the same sense as secular Jews. In a few places “Muslim” is or was itself used as an ethnic name. Remember Bosnia?
I’m not the one calling Jews a race, they are. I don’t believe in these racial distinctions.
If an individual does not self-identify as a Jew, certainly I’m not going to insist they must be based on their parentage (or for any other reason either).
I’d like to correct my earlier implication that Salman Rushdie ought to self-identify as an apostate and avoids doing so for any reason beyond his own beliefs.
:rolleyes:
Nothing to do with nothing once again, even more so in the context of this thread.
Cite that Sammy Davis Jr ever said any such thing.
When talking about a religion that systematically abuses women, pointing out that the founder of that religion was a child rapist is hardly irrelevant.
Is he their spokesperson?
I’m not fond of the term “secular Jew” either, but there is already a non-trivial contingent of people self-describing this way, so I will grudgingly accept it as meaning whatever its users think it means.
Hardly anyone describes themselves as a secular Muslim so far, and hopefully this will remain true. Do secular Muslims discriminate against women just for the heck of it instead of to comply with Allah’s edicts? Pray five times daily to no one? Or do they just want an excuse to wear comfy PJs all day and eat delicious biryani?
Did you read the post I linked too? Do you agree with anything I said there? In particular my point that we really can’t know for certain exactly what this ( sometimes disputed ) tradition might actually refer to? That even from what traditions we have it stands out as a glaring exception to the rule of what we think we know about his marriages? That it may have been purely political and Muhammed had no more interest in banging kids than you do? Do you acknowledge that it is a disputed tradition? Would you accept the oft claimed notion that however retrograde they may be viewed today that relative to its time and place Islam seems to have been somewhat enlightened in its guarantees of certain female rights?
Finally do you think there is any possibility that Muhammed was not a child rapist? Or are you absolutely convinced based on a disputed tradition that post-dates Muhammed and is hazy enough it has left room for various scholarly interpretations down through the ages. Because I mean, sure, plenty of Muslims ARE absolutely convinced. Many others are not.
Last but not least how is any of this relevant to some kid doing a show and tell about some of the traditions of her religion at her school? Except in the most tangential way of “here’s another reason I can think of that Islam is bad, therefore we shouldn’t give it equal time.” At a GRADE SCHOOL level.
No, he was his spokesperson: black guy, born in Harlem, decided to become Jewish, so let it be written, so let it be done.
And yet, when it’s 105 degree out, if I take off my shirt while I walk to work, there will be “serious consequences.” I’ll be arrested, while a man could do that without any problems.
I guess I’m so thoroughly indoctrinated that I’ve become an android, however, because I don’t think I’d be comfortable walking around topless. Hopefully somewhere out there some nice Himba or Tahitian women are ready to lecture me about how oppressed I am.
Actually, we aren’t talking about a religion that systematically abuses women.
We are talking about a society that when a teenage girl shares her culture with her classmates in a fashion designed to increase understanding, members of that society harass and abuse her.
I forget, was the her own religion? No, it was the assholes who are so intimidated by any mention of Islam that abusing a teenage girl seems like an appropriate reaction.
Yes, well known… What’s your point?
Sort of agreed. Comparative religion could easily fill a semester each year. There’s a lot of history on HOW religions were spread through the world. Once all the major religions are covered, members of a belief system should discuss the parts of their religion that they don’t agree with or that makes them uncomfortable about their religion or elements of it that make them question their faith. Hate groups, be aware! Children are talking LOGIC! Grab a useless bible/quran and get behind it! Common sense is attacking!