Illegal people; illegal activities

[Algorithm]

@Honesty

Illegal immigration has a lot to do with 9/11 insofar that the U.S has had persistent terrorist attacks since.

…what?

[Der_Trihs]

@Honesty

The people here illegally need to be shipped home where they can apply, via mail or Internet, to come here legally.

Even ignoring the fact that we can’t do that, there’s also the fact that them doing so would make it nearly impossible for them to get in, unless they have a decade or two to spare waiting. The system is designed to discourage legal immigration and encourage illegal immigration. We are looking for people who are easy to exploit, not for legal immigrants whom we’d have to treat like human beings.

[Little_Nemo]

I don’t think people should break the law by coming to America illegally or by cockfighting.

I think we should stop illegal immigration issue by a general legalization of immigration. Then all those Mexicans would be legal immigrants not illegal immigrants and everyone would love them. Because all those people keep saying that they have no problems with Mexicans and the only problem they have is with illegal immigrants. So problem solved.

Cockfighting is an issue I don’t really have an opinion on. I’m not in favor of it personally but I don’t see that alone as a reason to make it illegal for everyone else. But I’m open to arguments on this one.

[rogerbox]

@Honesty

Illegal immigration has a lot to do with 9/11 insofar that the U.S has had persistent terrorist attacks since. The bar needs to be raised on who we accept to ensure that we aren’t letting criminals and potential domestic terrorist into the country.

I thought you people who were so terrified of terrorism that you make it such a major issue only existed on TV to rabblerouse and try to get votes from other people scared of terrorism. Didn’t know you guys were actually “real” if that makes sense. :dubious:

It isn’t that big an issue to rational people in every day life, much less something we should ruin hundreds of thousands of families over.

[Carol_the_Impaler]

@Honesty

The bar needs to be raised on who we accept to ensure that we aren’t letting criminals and potential domestic terrorist into the country. This is very hard to do if we enact a sweeping amnesty programs.

Amnesty does not mean you get a Get In Free pass. Immigrants still have to pass criminal background checks. Plus, the list of what is considered an aggravated felonyfor purposes of immigration is much, much broader than what otherwise constitutes an aggravated felony for anybody else, so the bar is already higher for immigrants in that regard.

Congress first created the concept of aggravated felony in the Anti-Drug Abuse Act of 1988 as part of a broader effort to combat narcotics trafficking. The three specific crimes listed in the original 1988 Act were, in fact, every bit as severe as the term indicates: murder, drug trafficking, and illegal trafficking in firearms and destructive devices. Those crimes were incorporated into the immigration statute.

Since then, subsequent legislation has expanded the definition of aggravated felony several times. Despite the aggravated felony label, many of these crimes have been interpreted by federal courts to include misdemeanors, even though misdemeanors are generally meant to encompass less serious or dangerous acts than crimes traditionally designated as felonies.

(snip) A good example of this concerns Carlos Pacheco who entered the US with a green card as a 6-year old child. In 2000 a federal appeals court agreed that he was an aggravated felon based on his misdemeanor conviction in Rhode Island for stealing some Tylenol and cigarettes. In doing so, the court expressed its own “‘misgivings’ that Congress, in its zeal to deter deportable non-citizens from re-entering this country”, equated misdemeanors with felonies. In this case, the immigration consequences were much more severe than the criminal consequences.

So, what might otherwise be a misdemeanor could very easily bar an immigrant from applying for legal status or bar them from re-entry into the US at all, ever. Wrote a bad check twenty years ago? No amnesty for you!! (This actually happened to a client of mine.)

And if you think this is going to cause people to leave the US because they’ll never be able to get a green card, you’re wrong. Undocumented immigrants who have aggravated felonies (under the immigration law) on their records simply never apply to become legal residents. They just stay illegal and go further underground.

[magellan01]

@Rushgeekgirl

That was beautifully said.

If you like pablum. It still comes to down to a subjective view. For instance, not everyone would agree with his estimation of cock fighting. Not to mention crossing borders and living illegally in a country when thousands are waiting to come in legally.

[magellan01]

@Really_Not_All_That_Bright

ILLEGAL IMMIGRANTS DO NOT RECEIVE FREE MEDICAL CARE.

They are guaranteed emergency medical care regardless of their ability to pay, just like everyone else. They still get billed for that care, just like everyone else.

Do they pay those medical bills, too, just like everyone else? Oh, no, they don’t. So they DO RECEIVE FREE MEDICAL CARE.

Glad that’s straightened out.

@Really_Not_All_That_Bright

What the fuck does one have to do with the other? The 9/11 hijackers entered the US legally.

Some of them were here by overstaying their visas, resulting in them being here illegally. All illegal residents should be found and deported. Both those who snuck across the border and those who have gamed the system.

[magellan01]

@Ravenman

“Human beings of unascertained or unsatisfactory bureaucratic authorization to be present in this particular country.”

Nah. “Illegals” is shorter and more convenient. And accurate shorthand.

[villa]

@magellan01

Do they pay those medical bills, too, just like everyone else? Oh, no, they don’t. So they DO RECEIVE FREE MEDICAL CARE.

Glad that’s straightened out.

Do you have evidence that undocumented, uninsured aliens who receive emergency medical care and are later billed for it are more likely to default on those bills than other uninsured people who receive emergency medical care and are later billed for it?

Because otherwise, I don’t think you have straightened anything out. Certainly not to the extent of including a comment “just like everyone else.”

Hell, I have to know well into double figures of people who have not paid some kind of medical bill, and all of them are U.S. Citizens.

[magellan01]

@Really_Not_All_That_Bright

Do you know how much it would cost to deport 15 million people? Do you understand that we can’t find them even if we could deport them?

You’re right about this. It’s unrealistic to think this will be done. But what we CAN do is:

1. Secure the borders
2. Go after employers in a serious way. Arrest them and put them in jail.
3. Remove any other incentive: in-state tuition, school for illegal kids, change the law that makes someone a citizen just by being born on American soil, etc.
4. Increase the number of people who can come here legally. But make it impossible to even be on the list if you reside here illegally.

[Chronos]

Quoth Honesty:

I dunno, I think the illegals should go home. All of them. It’s not about taxes or money, it’s about fairness. If we grant them amnesty, we should grant everyone who is waiting to be an American citizen amnesty. We can have an amnesty orgy.

Sure, why not? That sounds just fine to me.

[magellan01]

@villa

Do you have evidence that undocumented, uninsured aliens who receive emergency medical care and are later billed for it are more likely to default on those bills than other uninsured people who receive emergency medical care and are later billed for it?

Because otherwise, I don’t think you have straightened anything out. Certainly not to the extent of including a comment “just like everyone else.”

Hell, I have to know well into double figures of people who have not paid some kind of medical bill, and all of them are U.S. Citizens.

I’m glad you asked this, because it gets to the heart of an important aspect. Any society will have a portion of its citizens who they will have to provide for in some way. Yes, the U.S. has millions of citizens who are dirt poor and can’t pay their medical bills. And I agree that we have an obligation to provide at least a minimum of care for them. But that responsibility does not extend to the rest of the world’s poor. Or even the rest of the world’s poor who manage to make it onto American soil.

It’s like a family. You may have to make allowances and help support your pathetic cousin, but not somebody else’s cousin.

[Blalron]

@magellan01

If you like pablum. It still comes to down to a subjective view.

When it comes to morality, everything is subjective. Until somebody solves David Hume’s Is-Ought problem it all boils down to personal preferences. I don’t think that blind adherence to the law is neccesarily going to be the best moral choice. The Underground Railroad was illegal too, but most people today would say they were doing the right thing.

For instance, not everyone would agree with his estimation of cock fighting. Not to mention crossing borders and living illegally in a country when thousands are waiting to come in legally.

My response to that is that we should lessen the enormous amount of red tape neccesary to become a legal citizen.

From a humanitarian standpoint, I have a hard time condemning anyone for wanting to flee from an impoverished environment they had no choice to be born into. If I were in their situation I’d do the same thing.

[villa]

@magellan01

I’m glad you asked this, because it gets to the heart of an important aspect. Any society will have a portion of its citizens who they will have to provide for in some way. Yes, the U.S. has millions of citizens who are dirt poor and can’t pay their medical bills. And I agree that we have an obligation to provide at least a minimum of care for them. But that responsibility does not extend to the rest of the world’s poor. Or even the rest of the world’s poor who manage to make it onto American soil.

It’s like a family. You may have to make allowances and help support your pathetic cousin, but not somebody else’s cousin.

Thanks for avoiding the question. Do you have any evidence to back up your original comment…

@magellan01

Do they pay those medical bills, too, just like everyone else? Oh, no, they don’t.

I’m assuming from how much you avoided the question, you don’t have any evidence. I’m not interested in your theories about the “family” of U.S. citizens. I just want to see if you can back up what you posted.

It may be true by the way - undocumented aliens may default on medical bills more than other uninsured. But I am willing to go out on a limb and guess that you don’t know if it is or not, and it was just another easy way to try and target people who look different.

[magellan01]

@villa

Thanks for avoiding the question. Do you have any evidence to back up your original comment…

I’m assuming from how much you avoided the question, you don’t have any evidence. I’m not interested in your theories about the “family” of U.S. citizens. I just want to see if you can back up what you posted.

It may be true by the way - undocumented aliens may default on medical bills more than other uninsured. But I am willing to go out on a limb and guess that you don’t know if it is or not, and it was just another easy way to try and target people who look different.

You miss my point. It doesn’t matter if the rates are the same or not the same. You seem to allow that some portion of them do not pay their medical bills. And my point is that we shouldn’t have to pay one dime for any of them. Just as you shouldn’t have to pay one dime for my pathetic cousin.

[foolsguinea]

It’s not that actions are bad because they’re illegal.

If the law is working right, actions are illegal because they’re bad.

Speeding on the highway is dangerous. Assault hurts people. Theft (actual physical theft, not torrenting or some such thing) causes someone else to take a loss.

What’s bad about crossing a line in the dust to look for work? If we don’t accept, “because it’s illegal,” as a reason, is there any reason?

[villa]

@magellan01

You miss my point. It doesn’t matter if the rates are the same or not the same. You seem to allow that some portion of them do not pay their medical bills. And my point is that we shouldn’t have to pay one dime for any of them. Just as you shouldn’t have to pay one dime for my pathetic cousin.

It DOES matter because you said the rates weren’t the same. I don’t care about your opinions on this. Just interested to see if you have any facts to back them up. But instead you are weaseling out and changing your statement.

It’s not that I am missing your point. I see it, and genuinely don’t care about it. I know there is no chance of changing your opinion on this, and, to be honest, I think your opinions are the best argument out there to convert open minded people towards better treatment of immigrants. But what I don’t like is people making things up to support their arguments. Did you just make it up, or do you have a factual cite for what you originally claimed?

[magellan01]

@foolsguinea

It’s not that actions are bad because they’re illegal.

If the law is working right, actions are illegal because they’re bad.

Speeding on the highway is dangerous. Assault hurts people. Theft (actual physical theft, not torrenting or some such thing) causes someone else to take a loss.

What’s bad about crossing a line in the dust to look for work? If we don’t accept, “because it’s illegal,” as a reason, is there any reason?

I’d say yes. Let me ask you this. Do you think theres any moral obligation to respect what belongs to others? Do you think it’s okay to ignore your neighbors property line? After all, it, too, is an arbitrary demarcation.

As far as speeding…what do you consider speeding. How fast is too fast? I think we’d agree that there is a correlation between rate of speed and danger, but it all boils down to a trade off. Again, a rather arbitrary line of demarcation that we agree to draw.

[Blalron]

@Honesty

What should we call them?

I prefer “Unauthorized Immigrant” or “Illegal immigrant” works also.

My problem with referring to “illegal people” is that it seems to criminalize the person, instead of just referring to the action they committed.

Furthermore, being here without the proper authorization is not a crime, it is a civil violation. A person can not be sent to prison merely for being here illegally.

You know what’s also a civil violation? Speeding. Parking violations. But I wouldn’t call people who commit those violations, even habitually and without remorse, as being “illegals” either.

[What_the]

@Blalron

Furthermore, being here without the proper authorization is not a crime, it is a civil violation. A person can not be sent to prison merely for being here illegally.

Interesting… have there been any efforts to make it a crime?