Illusionists and "kayfabe" - where is the ethical line?

Inspired by the current Uri Geller thread (at least the discussion whether Geller’s claims of paranormal ability are just part of his act). I have derided Geller for so long I never stopped to consider this. When I recounted some of the thread’s discussion with friends of mine who had not heard of Geller, they said they didn’t get the hate. This gave me pause.

Certainly one who claims psychic ability to prey on people (esp. accepting money from the grieving to contact the departed) should be labelled “fraud” and in my opinion prosecuted.

For the purposes of this discussion let’s stipulate the following:
[ul]
[li] Geller actually has no paranormal powers[/li][li] the reason he makes psychic claims are to entertain, to enhance the drama/mystery of his stage act.[/li][li] he clearly crossed the line by selling books along the lines of “you too can unleash your psychic powers like I did” and selling “dowsing” services based on ablities he does not possess[/li][/ul]

If Geller had not engaged this third thing, would we Dopers herald him as a dedicated performer or would we still shout “fraudster”? Assuming the latters, where is the line?

Clearly an illusionist is entitled to (in fact expected to) lie onstage. David Copperfield did not fly. Derren Brown did not read people’s minds nor does he use NLP. Harry Houdini [often?] used gimmicked locks/knots. Even James Randi, when replicating Geller’s drawing/mind-reading trick for Barbara Walters, assumed the role of mentalist, “Think of the picture clearly in your mind” (to which Walters reacted, “as if that matters” or words to that effect). There is no question that part of the illusionist-audience contract involves falsehood and everyone is okay with that - no one is called “fraudster” or “charleton”.

What if the falsehoods follow the performer off-stage? Kreskin maintains an off-stage insistence that he is not using trickery in some parts of his mind-reading act. He doesn’t claim it’s paranormal but he does claim he has a special ability (sensitivity to body language, what-have-you) that to my knowledge he has never disavowed, and which is certainly BS. I happen to have a low opinion of Kreskin as a performer, but does his “kayfabe” mean he’s a fraud?

I know this is fiction, but in the movie The Prestige

Christan Bale’s character is actually twin brothers - a secret they hide from the public and even close friends to make his (their) teleportation illusion more spectacular.

and non-spoiler: the Chinese performer that always walks with a troubled gait to hide the fact that his trick is done by straddling the fish bowl between his legs. We are given to admire the Chinese performer’s dedication to his art that he would alter his entire public life, never “breaking character” to keep safe his secret.

So when does this off-stage perpetuation of the on-stage falsehood become a bad thing? If a performer garners more ticket sales with such a “kayfabe” than would have without it, has he/she bilked the public - taking money not actually earned?

An illusionist isn’t under an obligation to reveal how it’s done. Are they under an obligation to disclaim actual “magic” (or whatever false “explanation” given for the illusory feats)? I happen to admire those that do and think less of those that don’t. Derren Brown, when first starting, in his own opinion, pushed the falsehood too far with his claims of using subliminal/NLP/etc techniques.

He now says,

I respect that stance - and moreso DB’s efforts to debunk fraudsters. On the other hand, if I see an illusionist who does not make such disclaimers, I can still enjoy the show - even if that illusionist bald-facedly claims whatever and never recants or disclaims. Why? Because I know he’s trying to fool me. He knows he’s trying to fool me. I am not fooled, merely entertained - impressed at how well the real mechanism is hidden but knowing there is a real mechanism.

But what if I am fooled? What if I really thought David Coppefield was actually defying gravity with no contraptions - flying through sheer force of will? Does DC have an obligation to correct my error? What if, as a publicity stunt, DC attempts to and succeeds in fooling a physicist, then uses quotes from the fooled physicist in his promotional material? Those that know DC is an illusionist would say, “Wow, DC’s illusions are so good that it fooled a gravity expert - this I gotta see!” Some may erroneously form the opinion, “Wow, DC can fly! This I gotta see!” Must DC ensure that no one comes to this latter opinion?

Back to Geller. I personally find offensive anyone who tries to persuade the public that any supernatural phenomenon exist - irrespective of why they are doing it. David Blaine is a skilled magician, but it squicked me out when he allowed a woman to believe her dead mother was involved in one trick. Geller more than squicks me out because his schtick is relentless. This does the public a great disservice - but is this disservice distinguishable from McDonald’s offering unhealthy food. The public should know better than to eat at McD’s but does. The public should know better than to believe in psychics - but they do. Is either wrong in trying to profit from the public in either case?

So what if Geller had refrained from peddling wares, books, and services based on the fabricated “truth” of psychic phenomoneon and restricted himself only to staged performances and talk shows. What if he sticks to bending spoons and spinning compasses and steers clear of people’s dead relatives? Would it then be okay for him to never break kayfabe? I want to say no, it’s not okay - but I’m having difficulty objectively stating why beyond my distaste for the public’s appetite for and gullability of the paranormal.

I don’t have a great deal of respect for people who maintain an obvious lie to the point of farce. For me, the magic of a trick comes from knowing it was done via mundane means despite the apparent evidence of my eyes. If I had a choice between seeing a stage magician bend spoons with sleight of hand and a ‘real’ magician bend spoons with his mind, I’d go to the former as it’s the more impressive show.

That particular example may be fiction, but it was used by someone appearing on “Penn and Teller: Fool Us.” Penn didn’t exactly give it away, but he said something like, “If Teller and I knew exactly how you did that trick, would we be able to perform it?” Not sure whether the performer actually said no, but it was clear that he hadn’t fooled them.

Regarding the main point of the thread, I can’t fully explain why, but I feel that Kreskin oversteps the ethical line. Pretending you have magical powers seems to be a bigger deal than a professional wrestler (which I gather is where the term “kayfabe” comes from) pretending that an on-stage feud is real. In a sense Kreskin/Geller are competing for the same audience as Brown/Penn and Teller, but the former (by pretending they have magical powers) are trying to get the upper hand over the latter (who admit to using illusions), when they are actually inferior performers.

On reflection, it’s not a great argument, but I think the ethical line is when the paid performance is over.

Does it make sense for me to nitpick a spoiler? Okay, I will anyway.

The teleportation machine is actually a duplicating machine. In order to preserve the illusion that Bale has teleported, one of the two is drowned. At the end, Bale shows his vault of drowned duplicates. One of the duplicates has been allowed to survive, which is how they accomplish several of the other tricks.


I shall also nitpick by pointing out that your nitpick applies to Jackman’s character, not to Bale’s. Bale’s gimmick is farfetched, but within the realm of the (barely) possible. Jackman’s gimmick is impossible, at least by 2013 technology.

I havent even seen the film, but it gets talked about enough that I think you are wrong here, and that you are talking about Hugh Jackmans character?

On Kreskin, I was under the impression that, when pressed in the context of hard news, he disavows any supernatural powers–though he does make claims that many skeptics and psychologists may find farfetched. I would NOT put him in the same category as Geller or Sylvia Browne.

Dagnabbit, you’re right. I confused them.

The ethical line is crossed when the psychic starts making health claims, such as that AIDS can be cured by concentration. That is unambiguously evil.

(I once applied for a job as a telephone psychic. Amusing, as I’m not a believer. But it didn’t matter: they didn’t require belief, just a good telephone performance. They had a number of rules that struck me as quite ethical. One was: don’t make the customer dependent on you. If a particular customer started calling too often, the management’s rule was to cut them back, and, if necessary, cut them off. They didn’t want to be accused of exploitation. Another good rule was: no health advice! Ever! Don’t talk about medical issues, in any form. This is another rule that is both highly ethical, and strongly self-protective. They don’t want to get sued!)

The line is the one that Geller crosses by selling products based on supernatural forces, other than for entertainment purposes. If he only did it for his act, and didn’t promote the concept that others have psychic abilities, it would just be performance art. But it his insistence of the existence of supernatural powers outside of his act in order to sell products that crosses the line.

Also I wish people would stop using the word ‘kayfabe’. It’s not heavily used by wrestlers, and mostly became popular in the internet age among non-wrestlers who want to feel like they’re insiders. When someone uses the word it tells me they don’t know much about the subject except what they read on the internet.

I agree with this about Kreskin. He hovers around the line, but he’s been more careful than Geller about misleading people about the nature of his act.


Aside:When I saw that episode, I pulled up the performer on Facebook. He had a listing for his family members, and had his brother listed. Apparently, they weren’t’ quite as devoted to the bit as the guys in Prestige

Anyhoo, I don’t have any problem with Magicians pretending to be supernatural, even if they keep the bit up off-stage. Geller pretty clearly went beyond that though, he was doing things that had nothing to do with his act to make himself appear supernatural. Geller wasn’t pretending to be a psychic to make his show more fun, he was doing his show to appear to be psychic.

By that standard, Uri Geller is incontestably evil: the bannerhype on his dowsing kit says “find wealth, health and well-being by dowsing and divining”. Pretty risky to make a package claim like that.

I saw Geller when he first went on TV in the UK. It was not presented as any sort of act. He was flat out claiming to have (limited but real) psychic powers. There were two other people brought on to debate what Geller did, one an avowed believer in psychic phenomena and the other was supposed to be a skeptic. Unfortunately, the person roped in to play the skeptic role (physicist John Taylor) was completely taken in, and for some time thereafter became one of Geller’s most important promoters. (He eventually realized his mistake.)

This, I think, is something quite different from all the other performers mentioned. In all those other cases, including that of Kreskin, it is always perfectly clear that you are watching an act. The thing about Geller is not just that he keeps up the act offstage (as, apparently, Kreskin does to some extent) but that (at least on the occasion I saw him) he pretends that he is not doing an act at all. He was offering himself not as an entertainer, but as a phenomenon to be studied and debated by scientists: an ordinary, somewhat flaky guy who just happened to have realized that he has some strange powers. That is where the special dishonesty lies.

This is also how Geller gets away with the very limited and unspectacular range of effects he produces (when I saw him, IIRC, he was limited to bending/breaking of cutlery, reading drawings in envelopes and the stopping or starting of watches). The very fact that his tricks are not very impressive, and not presented with much ceremony is meant to convince you that you are watching a real, untutored psychic rather than a performer.

Indeed, one of the key things that led to his discrediting in Britain was the revelation that he had formerly worked as a magician, a performer, in Israel. The whole stick of not being a performer was revealed as a lie.

You’re right: I had never heard of the term before seeing it in the other thread. Based only on that (and after skimming the wiki article on the word) it appeared to me that the word morphed from wrestling into a general term vaguely synonymous with “performance art” - a public off-stage continuation of a staged event, and thus a useful shorthand for this discussion. I should have avoided using a word I was unsure of.

Back to the ethical line: It is clear Geller crossed the line with many of the products he sold, the sales of which based on his promotion of the existence of actual psychic abilities he knows does not exist. In doing so he added fuel to the skeptics’ fire. By clearly crossing the line we have tons of ammo to shoot him with. But if he hadn’t sold all that crap, what would we be saying about his “performance art” aside from its using second rate trickery?

Whimsically playing devil’s advocate (and I don’t believe any of this for a second!!): What if Geller had noble intentions, to challenge the public’s idea of psychic phenomenon. What if he was so dedicated to debunking psychics that he gave the world a psychic to debunk? As a piece of performance art that would be pretty impressive. If we somehow discovered this was his intent, would that change the fact that he crossed an ethical line (again, discounting the selling of that crap which is clearly crossing the line - or is it, if he secretly donated the proceeds to JREF?)

No. By actively encouraging people to believe in the paranormal he does harm. Would the Sylvia Browne or James Edwards have been able to rise to their levels of fame/fortune if Geller hadn’t fertilized the field first?

You’re using it correctly. Its expanded beyond its original niche use* (as many words do) to a general term for maintaining a fictional premise even outside the actual performance. Tripolor’s contention that use of the word is limited to people trying to fake some insider knowledge of wrestling is silly.

*(supposedly its actually a word used by carnival workers, and so its use in wrestling is actually already a case where a word expands beyond its original use)

I’m not saying he used in incorrectly. I’m saying it makes those who use the word look silly because it’s rarely been used by wrestlers or carnies, and simply used by those who want to connote an insider’s knowledge that they don’t really have.

Hyperbole does not become you. Saying “You can achieve health” is just empty blither. Saying “You can cure yourself of AIDS” is deadly, deceitful, and damnable.

Fair enough – which is difficult for me to be WRT to Geller. I detect a rather pronounced bias such that I should probably impose upon myself the complement to the Peter Morris restriction.

Which, considering that we’re not even discussing wrestling at the moment and nobody is attempting to claim an insider’s knowledge of anything, is a pretty silly objection to levy against an appropriate use of the word.