This is basically what I was trying to say. I am not trying to make a case for or against abortion, but I certainly think I am perfectly within my rights to not want to support it.
Oh, no, I agree with that totally. I was just wondering as to your reasoning. Some people have said they think doctors who perform abortions have less of a commitment to saving lives than those who don’t.
Maureen, see my post at the top of this page. The friend I mentioned was married and both of her children were born within wedlock to her husband. She was also a Methodist. Nevertheless, her doctor refused to prescribe birth control for her because it didn’t align with his practice’s Christian beliefs. I assume if she thought the doctor or practice were Catholic she would have mentioned it, but I don’t know what denomination the doctor was.
By the way, my last dentist was an agnostic, Jewish libertarian. A good dentist, and a better friend, but, alas, he’s just retired. I don’t know what religion my current doctor is, if any, nor am I all that interested in finding out. What matters is he’s a good, competent doctor.
Oh, not at all. I actually think my doctor might do them (like in a case where there is something wrong with the baby). But I had complete faith that he would move heaven & earth to help me & my baby if the situation had warranted it.
I have absolutely no idea what religion any of my current doctors are. Nor do I care. I would only care if it impacted what they would/wouldn’t do for me. This agnostic sorta-pagan needs her birth control even if some churches think I don’t!
Yes, I do mean backslidden **from ** Christianity. And a doctor ‘in the faith’ certainly will have more faith, by definition, that one ‘backslidden,’ again by definition. As a general rule, Faith is the engine for prayer to be answered, in a Christian context.
QUOTE=Oy!]Uh, Christians believe they will be moving on to eternal paradise. Atheists believe that they die dead, no do-overs, no re-takes, no afterlife. Aside from the fact that doctors are in their field for the purpose of saving your life, why do you think an atheist would be less likely to value your life here on earth? Christians think they’re going to paradise; atheists think they’re going to die dead. Surely the atheist has more reason to fear death for himself or others than the Christian who knows that, regardless of how he has sinned, belief will merit forgiveness and eternal happiness.
[/QUOTE]
I already explained this. Please re-read my post.
I am half undefined on this question. It is a matter of definitions, I suppose. I know for a FACT, as you do, that people WILL serve their *own * interests. Perhaps this can be addressed in another thread.
I mean that if two people adhere to the verse, the prayer shall be answered. Cf. the referenced verse.
hh
Unless you’re defining “answered” to mean something other than the conventional, you do realize that this is directly contradicted by reality, right? Groups of people pray for things all the time and they don’t happen.
It would raise a small doubt in my mind, yes, and as it’s my healthcare that’s at stake, I’d rather be sure. Also, if a doctor performs abortions and I don’t think that’s right then I think I’m entitled to take my business elsewhere. Why should I financially support that doctor and his practice?
But it also repulses me on a physical level. If a doctor is prepared to perform an abortion I’d rather not even be examined by him.
Huh. Not only would an atheist practitioner “move heaven and earth to help me and my baby if the situation warranted it”, any competent practitioner would.
You all do realize that there are such things as standards of care out there, right? That your medical care is not up to some unspoken, but tacitly understood and enacted upon whim of the health care team? That medicine is one of the most regulated industries out there–and that every hospital (that I know of) has an ethics board, composed of lay, medical, health care and (usually) religious folk?
That docs and nurses see pts die every week, sometimes every day? And that seeing that does not harden one to death, but makes one perhaps more philosophical about it, but most definetly more enamoured of life? (not all practitioners, true, but the vast majority).
My mind is being blown by the ignorance in this thread. It is YOU, the pt, or the pt’s responsible party (as in the case of a baby or child) or SO that makes the decisions that will effect your future health, WITH THE ADVICE AND GUIDANCE OF YOUR PRACTITIONER AND OTHER MEMBERS OF THE HEALTH CARE TEAM. Sorry for the caps, but truly, I think that needs to be stressed.
YOU drive the bus. We act as the expert technicians to get your bus there (“there” being restored health, dignified death, acceptance of disability, whatever) as best we can. You are not helpless, passive victims, powerless before the almighty Doctor. If you want everything done to birth a baby with multiple congenital anomalies and no good odds of surviving past birth, we will help you birth that baby. Same with the opposite end of life: if you want everything done for Mom, despite no higher brain activity seen, it will be done.
The practitioners will attempt to educate you and will most definetly inform you of likely futre events, but YOU make the ultimate decisions regarding your care. Not your doctor, not his or her religion, not his or her lack of religion. We are taught in school, and it couldn’t be morely strongly stressed in nursing (and I think for med students, too), that we are NOT to push our belief systems onto any pt, family member etc. I am appalled at the docs posted about here that try to sway pts re birth control etc. For that, I say vote with your feet and find another doc. They are not acting as they should.
<lecture over>
I understand your hesitation, and I don’t know if it will help, but I can tell you that, speaking from this side of the stethescope, there is no lack of regard for life and just as much of a commitment to keeping patients healthy and well.
In fact, when I worked at a low-cost women’s health clinic which performed abortions, the doctors there were all extremely interested in their patients’ well being. Most of them asked their patients to come back for follow up treatment and well visits and treated other problems as well. They performed abortions because they believed that a safe abortion in a clinical setting was better than several alternatives, all of which could compromise a woman’s safety and in most cases, cause severe health problems. The whole assembly line abortion clinic thing with unfeeling doctors doing one abortion after another is really just rhetoric. It doesn’t happen that way.
As to your personal feelings; those are all you. You’re welcome to choose whatever physician you prefer for whatever reason you prefer. But you shouldn’t ascribe a mindset the doctor more than likely does not have and would be horrified to see in any of his peers.
And on preview, what el said.
I think I’d prefer it. I know that unfair as this may be, if I see two in the yellow pages that are equal in other ways, and one has a Jesus fish or a dove or something on their ad, I’ll go with the non-religious one. Not that I have anything against people who are religious, but I would be more worried about religious biases sneaking in regarding medical opinions, and also I just don’t want to expose myself to the chance of proselytization if I can avoid it.
Wow. I would really like you to find anywhere in this thread where I implied otherwise. I already stated that my doctor is from a different religious tradition from mine. Let me also add that for all I know, he IS an athiest…I have never asked him. Maureen was wondering if I thought that doctors who perform abortions have less of a committment to saving lives, and I said no. I don’t think my statement needs clarifying.
Basically, I was trying to explain the Catholic point of view, which someone on the board brought up, and people asked questions about.
I am pretty sure that NO ONE on this board stated that they believe that atheist doctors, or doctors who do not support abortion, do not care about life (one person said they have heard others say this.)
You REALLY don’t need to lecture me or (I will go out on a limb and assume), anyone else posting here. I take GREAT OFFENSE at being called ignorant in this regard. I am well aware that doctors are professionals who talk to their patients and help make decisions according to what the patient wants.
HOWEVER, I personally believe that doctors are also entitled to their own set of morals and beliefs, and have the right to practice that way. I think that if a doctor is morally opposed to something like birth control, the right thing to do is inform a patient about this, so the patient can choose to find another doctor if desired.
In addition, if a doctor performs abortions, or any other medical procedure, which a relgious person considers unacceptable, then they are well within their rights to find a doctor who does not perform these procedures.
See, I don’t think it’s unfair at all…that’s what you SHOULD do. Doctors are people…they have their own beliefs & attitudes. You should do to a doctor who you feel comfortable with. This is the start of a great relationship with your doctor, which you need to have in order to get the best care from that person.
Doctors are absolutely entitled to their own morals and beliefs, but no, they are not entitled to practice that way. They have an ethical obligation to treat their patients to the best of their ability regardless of their religious beliefs as well as a duty to help their patients make the most well informed choices regarding their health care. It is not the doctor’s decision to make if a patient takes birth control any more than it’s the doctor’s decision to make whether or not a patient is going to have a procedure. It is that patient’s decision, and the patient’s decision alone. Certainly the patient can go to a different physician, but that shouldn’t even enter into it. The physician has no right to refuse a patient treatment that patient wants because of his religious beliefs. By doing so (s)he is effectively coercing the patient to adhere to a set of morals and beliefs that may not be their own.
Thank you Maureen for stating that so well.
My point is that overwhelmingly, a doctor’s personal belief system is irrelevant to the care he or she provides. It matters not at all if the doc is Catholic, atheist, pagan or Hindu. This talk about religion or faith imbuing the doctor with a more intense commitment to positive outcomes may make people feel better, but simply isn’t true as a general rule.
Sarahfeena -my previous post was not wholely directed at you. There have been others in this thread who have shown misconceptions about the medical decision process. I was speaking generally. I used your quote because it was handiest; sorry if you thought it all was directed at you. You did give clear reasons for not choosing a doc. I do not agree with them, but I agree that the choice is yours to make.
I wanted to also make the(general) point that the most religious of docs may well support a woman’s choice to abort(for example), despite it going against what the doc personally believes in, because it is the woman’s decision and the doctor’s role is to give her the available, safe and legal options-anything less is malpractice.
In other words, personal faith matters not at all, in matters of this kind. Or shouldn’t. Certainly, faith can and does matter to each person, but for the health professional, it cannot be allowed to prevent or hinder a person’s right to informed consent and care. Period. This is why I am puzzled by the idea that an atheist doc would somehow play fast and loose with a pt’s life. I would more likely fear the sanctimonous physician, who decides to follow a belief construct that may not match my own.
Sadly, there has been evidence in this thread that some practitioners do indeed use their practice to push their values onto pts. IMO, these should be brought before their state boards and at least censured.
Tangent:
As nurses, we have a choice (more so than docs): we can refuse to take care of a pt. Or we can give the pt the option of having someone else care for them. This is not done lightly or often. But (and this is the example always used), if a nurse is anti-abortion, she is allowed to refuse to care for that pt, with some caveats. She cannot abandon the pt. She cannot agree to take care of the pt and then refuse mid-shift to continue, unless she has found another nurse to take over care. She cannot interfere with the care of that pt by others.
I have always thought the above to be so much BS. To me, it doesn’t dovetail with the principle of nursing that is indoctrinated into us from day one: you meet the client where he or she is.
You, the nurse may not personally not approve or support abortion, but this procedure was not your decision, and you have a pt who needs care. Does one then refuse to care for drug addicts, HIV+ folk, felons, mentally retarded people? Personal distaste or disapproval of “'lifestyle” choices being allowed to determine practice is unacceptable for a nurse(or any health care practitioner), IMO. While under care, the nurse is to treat all individuals with compassion, concerning herself with the pts welfare, while including the pt in all steps of the decision making process. IOW, I may think that sex change operations are a huge waste of money*, but if I have a pt who undergoes one, s/he deserves the same post-op quality care that
the priest undergong triple bypass gets.
So, this whole thought process of “the atheist won’t invest as much time and energy into saving my life as a religious person” is prejudice. It isn’t true.
- I don’t believe this, I only use it for illustration.
Maureen - How about this, then. I find abortions morally repugnant. I find doctors who perform abortions morally repugnant. I don’t want one to treat me, I don’t want my money going to one, and I would seek out an OB/GYN who I specifically knew didn’t perform abortions.
I don’t really care what faith my doctor is, but I do want someone I don’t feel is a murderer. Fair enough?
StG
Absolutely. As I said to Sarahfeena, that’s entirely her choice, and her personal preference is what it’s all about. It’s when doctors start making moral decisions for their patients that I get bent out of shape.
I was thinking about this question all day. I think if I found out my doctor was of a religion I thought was completely stupid (like maybe Satanism or Scientology), I would question his judgement and probably lose confidence in his abilities. And I guess I can see how the devoutly religious might think the same way about someone who didn’t share their beliefs.
To a Catholic doctor, their personal belief system may be completely relevant to the type of procedures they will perform. A religious doctor should in no way be obligated to perform IVF, or abortions, etc. There is nothing wrong whatsoever with a doctor referring a patient to another doctor, if that patient desires these kinds of procedures.
Well, I certainly appreciate your allowing me the freedom to find a doctor I am comfortable with. What you are not understanding is that this comfort level is extremely important to some patients. If a patient wants a doctor who has the same kinds of moral values that they do, it is not for you or anyone else to tell them that this is wrong.
On the other hand, they may well not support that right. Or maybe they support the right, but do not agree with the choice and do not wish to perform abortions.
Only one poster that I have seen on this board alluded to MAYBE having the feeling that this could happen. Other than that, this opinion was hearsay, which Maureen claims she has heard people say (I have never heard this reasoning, myself.)
I would CERTAINLY expect any nurse to give every patient the best of care. I respect the nursing profession greatly. The nurses who have had occasion to care for me & my relatives have been wonderful. I would certainly expect anyone in the medical profession to treat all patients with the utmost of respect & non-judgmental compassion, no matter what the circumstance. BUT…I would not expect those same doctors & nurses to volunteer at Planned Parenthood to do abortions if this was against their moral code.
As I said, I am pretty sure no one on this board has come right out and made this statement. But, if you are worried about prejudice, maybe you should look into your own heart and think about what your own prejudices are.
Then a religious doctor who allows his personal feelings and beliefs to override his professional ethics should not place himself in a position where he may be asked to provide treatment which challenges his religious beliefs.
I’m going to give you the benefit of the doubt and ask you if you really meant to imply I’m a liar.
I think el was referring to the physicians who refused to prescribe birth control. That is prejudicial. That’s a patient’s choice to make, not the doctor’s to make for her.