Just curious, did any SUV owners consider such vehicles as a Subaru or Passat wagon (available w/ 4WD), or a PT Cruiser/Toyota Matrix (4WD available)/Pontiac Vibe?
And for hauling sheets of plywood, you can lay them flat in a Honda Odyssey.
My $.02
I own a VW Passat and it has 4W drive. You don’t * have * to get an SUV if you need 4W drive.
uuuuh, Dinsdale, JINX!!!
Uhh, SUVs are generaly a little tougher than a 4by van or whatever. Also they have better ground clearance. If you have to deal with deep snow this can be important.
I can plung through 2 feet of snow in my Pathfinder. I once went through snow that went of the hood of my CJ7. It may seem that ground clearance is a moot point in this extreme circumstances but it’s not. Every inch helps.
Maybe you haven’t noticed, but car manufacturers have been working quite aggressively to make cars safer. Cars are now designed to absorb a great deal of the impact of a front-end crash, rather than transmit the entire force to the driver, like they did 30 years ago. Shoulder straps, front and side air bags, anti-lock brakes, better tires…my 1970 Buick Skylark had a hell of a lot more steel around me than my 2000 Accord, but the Skylark was a deathtrap by comparison.
I mentioned air bags: frankly, air will make you safer than steel, and for the price of an SUV, you can get a sedan with all the safety trimmings - front and side airbags, anti-lock brakes, the whole shebang. I refuse to believe that there’s a significant safety difference without some statistics.
For most SUV buyers, that’s exactly right. And as I said a few posts back, there are measures of selfishness in personal choices. The choice to drive around in an SUV when you don’t particularly need one is, as I have explained, a selfish choice.
Nope, we’ve all got good and bad mixed together within us. But when it’s simply a matter of choice, is it a selfish and inconsiderate choice? I’ve argued above that it is; you’re welcome to rebut if you think it isn’t.
Nope. I produced a quite reasonable test to distinguish selfish behavior. The gratuitous use of SUVs qualifies; use of ‘normal’ cars when that’s all you really ever need, doesn’t. (You brought the issue to the table - “the pinnacle of selfishness and arrogance” was your phrase about those of us who object to gratuitous SUV use, so I figure it’s OK for me to run with it.)
So people who buy SUVs they don’t need are making selfish choices that make driving a pain in the neck for the rest of us - and it’s because we made you do it!!!
So you’re not only making sucky choices, but dodging the responsibility too.
Yeah, and people should play their stereos as loud as they want, and those who don’t like it should get more soundproof cars/houses/whatever.
Consumer choice is great, as long as your choice doesn’t affect my environment. If you get a 60" projection TV, more power to you; I can choose to get one too, or I can stay with my 19" TV, or whatever. If you get a 2002 Porsche, its practical effect on me is no different than if you had a '93 Taurus. Your choice hasn’t put any burden (other than emotional) on my own.
But your choosing an SUV burdens my choices. My choice to get a family sedan is inferior to what it used to be, because all the people who chose SUVs put a wall between me and the traffic ahead. So I can choose to be down where I can’t see so well, or I can pay an extra $10K for an SUV.
The old libertarian adage is that your freedom to swing your fist ends where my nose starts. My sense of it is that in a very real, practical, everyday sense, the choice of an SUV crosses that line.
I looked at the Explorer Sport. It looks pretty cool. It is MY opinion, however, that the lack of a couple of doors creates a lot of wasted space. It’s pretty difficult to access the rear seats for tossing things in and out. And it’s difficult for people to get in and out. I almost like the way the two doors LOOK better though. More room for spankings in the four door though.
And there it is right there, folks. I didn’t test drive mini-vans. The thought of a station wagon didn’t cross my mind. You all know why, so I won’t bother elaborating much. I’m just not a mini-van kinda gal. I also don’t see much benefit in driving an UGLY vehicle with all the detriments of a truck. I see no benefit to owning a van.
Consequently, the view from my truck is amazing. I can see more and have fewer blind spots than I’ve ever had in another vehicle. All that glass makes for a hell of a view.
I’m enjoying it more every day. It is true though, there is an adjustment period to learn where your vehicle ends and other stuff begins. I tend to OVER estimate my size though, and park three feet from the curb. I’m sure I’ll get used to it quickly though. I’ve never been the cause of an auto accident in my life and I don’t plan to start now. (Though, i did have an accident once that a limo caused. Now THERE are some unsafe vehicles!)
Oh, and Coldfire…ummm…I still have the Jag. Don’t tell anyone though, k?
Joke: The way I figure it, everyone has a certain allotment of gas they should use up, to fuel the economy and to ensure further attempts at finding better, cleaner energy sources. I’m making up for a couple of you Honda drivers. 
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I drive a Pathfinder and live in a rural area. I don’t do much big city driving anymore (although I used to 10 years ago). A few weekends ago I found myself driving my Moms 89 Honda in Denver, SUV Capitol of the world. So I’m driving a small, unfamiliar car in an environment I’m not that familiar with that is packed with SUV’s.
I wasn’t intimidated or scared at all. I guess I’m either stupid or just a competent, confident driver. I have never been involved in an accident so I have to say the later. I understand that a larger car will almost always win in an accident. I also understand that most accidents can be avoided by paying attention and driving defensively.
I’m not trying to be a smart-ass, or deride anyone’s driving abilities. I just feel that we don’t really know who needs an SUV or not. Personally, I have many reasons for owning one. If someone wants one or believes they need one, go for it.
First of all, Firefly, most of my last post was responding to specific things that Binarydrone said to me…I wasn’t talking to you. But, since you have jumped in on it, I’ll respond to your rantings as well.
I don’t see how your personal doubt that having more structure around you in a crash is a good thing makes my point invalid.
This is one of those instances where I was not talking to you, I was responding to specific questions and comments that Binary had posed to me in response to my post.
“Selfish” can also apply to people who want to restrict the right of others to make choices based solely upon their own personal dislikes and prejudices. In that usage, it most definitely applies to you. Again, you go back to the issue of “need”, as perceived by you and you alone. As I said before, SUV owners are not required to have their vehicles loaded to the gills at all times to “justify” their ownership of such. That capacity is, however, a nice thing to have if you need it.
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I don’t think I’ve ever seen anyone miss the point so completely, and on purpose before. Do you see the phrase “some people” in that paragraph? Do you understand what it means?
By the way, I am not making what you characterize as “sucky choices” - I don’t drive an SUV, and don’t want one. I will not, however, try to dictate the choices that other people are allowed to make on what car they choose to buy and drive.
Ah, I see, so everyone is entitled to thier basic human rights, unless exercising those rights annoys you personally. Don’t look now, but the constitution does not guarantee you the right to not be annoyed. Let’s say you manage to magically make all SUV’s disappear an a flash of harmless blue smoke. Next day some guy in a Porsche cuts you off on the highway and flips you the bird. Does that mean that Porsches shouldn’t be sold, because that guy didn’t need to be going that fast, and he’s infringing on your choice to drive a less sporty car?
If somebody in the next apartment is playing their stereo loud enough to bother me, I will ask them to turn it down, and explain that the noise is coming through my walls and keeping me from sleeping/watching TV/hearing my own music etc. If they are a decent person, they’ll probably turn it down. I don’t go next door and demand that they get a less powerful stereo because they don’t need an amp and speakers with that much power, nor do I try to keep the electronics stores from selling stereos like that because some people mis-use them.
Quoting libertarian adages will get you nowhere with me, BTW - but then again neither will quoting anything any other political party has put out in the last century or so. Looking to politicians for wisdom is like looking to a phone sex service for love. They’ll insist they have it for you, but in the end you’re just kidding yourself.
As I stated before, I’m not basing like or dislike for any doper based on their opinions in this thread. I am, however, starting to be annoyed by the way that some people are coming close to the line of personal attacks with some of their posts (and yeah, others are walking right up to that line with their responses to said posts - human nature in action…). This isn’t the Pit, and it’s not Great Debates. Let’s try to keep this thread in IMHO, ok?
Now, I’m going away for the weekend, so please, don’t quote me and demand a response until Monday, OK?
Is it selfish to not want to die because someone in an SUV is completely safe because of sheer size but someone in a normal sized car, I’m not talking about a plastic coffin on wheels, will be pulped and you can go home safe while the tow-truck drags your behemoth to the body shop to have the other person’s remains wiped off?
In my eyes it’s different with pickups, they’re used for utilitarian purposes like hauling ladders, helping people move or bringing back a kill from the hunt. Every pickup that I see is being used rather than just driven. Most SUVs I see are manned by a single person and I have gotten out at traffic lights to peer in the back and their bays were empty.
So is it bad when you see someone driving a minivan that’s not full of kids?
SUVs are not going away. Get used to it.
When I get a job, I am going to be buying a new car. I’ve thought about getting a small car with 4 wheel drive, but then I can’t tow anything. You never know when you’re going to need to tow something. I’ve thought about getting a pickup (F150 size). But then I can’t carry as many passengers. So I’ll probably get another SUV. I guess I’ll put up with the poor mileage.
And heptapod, the situation in that link could happen with pickups or minivans, too. It’s just popular to bash SUVs right now.
Your lack of driving accidents does not mean you’re an excellent driver. It may imply, however, that you have very good luck. I’ve been involved in two accidents, and neither were my fault. Both were caused by SUVs, and both times my car was totaled. I’m lucky those fratboy bastards didn’t kill me.
Did I go out and buy an SUV in retaliation? Hell no. I bought a Subaru Legacy with all-wheel drive, steel door beams, and air bags. If that’s not enough to keep me safe, oh well.
Wait until your first accident, enipla. You’ll suddenly see the road as a much less friendly place.
Hey shrew, it’s just popular to pick on fratboys!!! Leave them and their menacing SUVs alone!!! Picking on “popular” stuff is like shooting puppies in a barrel!!!
p.s. I’m surprised someone still makes a car with steel
So just because something is considered “popular” it’s suddenly devoid of merit?
I’ve been involved in an accident. It wasn’t my fault. It wasn’t caused by an SUV, either - it was a Hyundai Accent. Do I now go out telling people that they should never ever buy Hyundai Accents? No.
Well, I think that there’s more merit in bashing inconsiderate and dangerous drivers than there is in being angry at the kind of vehicle they drive. True, an SUV would make any mistake more obvious (whether it’s because of size or the fact that you’re looking for them to make mistakes.)
To me, SUVs are today’s scapegoat. Maybe it’s because I see so many reasonable people rabidly arguing against them.
Hey, I’ve been in an accident where my car was totalled. The culprit? A Chevette driven by an idiot who didn’t look to his left before pulling out.
I think it’s perfectly valid for the driver of a smaller car to want in front of me. As long as they’re driving as fast, or faster than I am. I can’t see in front of semi’s, so I try to get ahead of them.
This is a message board.
You seemed to be implying that added safety was a reason for buying SUVs. If not, then I apologize. If you are, then please provide a cite that such a safety advantage exists over similarly-priced standard cars.
OK, how?
Sorry, but I didn’t make that argument.
OK, I revise my remarks: some people are making selfish choices and blaming it on the people they’re being rude to.
No prob. 
I hope you’re familiar with the various usages of the pronoun ‘you’.
Whoa, friend! How virtuous!! This sort of implies that I have tried to so dictate. Show me where, and the duck comes down, etc.
There’s an oft-overlooked distinction between arguing that something is wrong and trying to get it outlawed. This is America, and Alan Keyes is a fuckwit, and we frequently do have the God-given, Founding-Fathers-preserved, right to do what is wrong. So just because I’m doing one, please don’t assume I’m therefore arguing for the other.
See above.
Ditto.
Who cares? You can respond to the point I used the adage to make, or not. It’s a free country.
Whatever.
Sorry, but how is this any different from asking SUV drivers to be a little more aware that their big powerful cars are causing safety issues for others? If they are decent, then they will drive extra carefully, and not swing in front of people and cut them off, and check to make sure avoiding something on the road won’t cause another vehicle to go off it, etc. I know a lot of people here say they HATE SUVs. I just think that if SUV drivers made a conscious effort to minimize that trouble that a big vehicle causes, then most of this wouldn’t be an issue. SUV drivers complain about 18-wheelers - well, to people in small cars, SUVS might as well BE 18-wheelers for all we can see!
Well, you’re obviously a superior human being to me then. I should aspire to your greatness.
Picking on fratboys is a classic for a reason. They endangered my life. They’re bastards. Given the choice between bashing those particular individuals and their vehicles, I would choose the individuals every time. The vehicles just happen to have been their instrument of torture. After all, SUVs don’t kill people; stupid morons with poor driving skills kill people.
This whole sentiment of “SUVs are the social pariah of the greenies” is so funny to me. Riiiiiiiight. We greenies just randomly pick consumer products to protest for no reason. We’re such sheep that we hear someone bashing SUVs at the local Earth Fare health market and suddenly latch onto the opportunity to “fight the power” whenever we can. We’re just hippies who are too busy getting high at a Panic concert to join the work world and buy a bigass car that, if we only tried it, we would LOVE in a heartbeat.
I don’t like SUVs. I don’t care what kind of reactionary formation has developed out of the social disdain for SUVs. I don’t like them, and that’s that.
That said, live and let live. Smoke 'em if you got 'em, and drive 'em if you want.
:rolleyes: Yes, I was specifically posting that in an attempt to make myself look better than you. Of course. That is my goal.
Posted by heptapod “Most SUVs I see are manned by a single person and I have gotten out at traffic lights to peer in the back and their bays were empty.”
Whoa! heptapod, Dude! You got a death wish? Lotsa’ people these days are packin’ heat. In the future you better “declare your intentions” before you jump out of your car and go peekin’ into somebody else’s vehicle.
PS: [sub]It’s none of your damn business what is or isn’t in the bay of another person’s car.[/sub]