Are you even fucking serious with this post or are just whooshing. Christmas is a huge fucking holiday in the US. GET THE FUCK OVER IT REST OF THE WORLD.
This country is still mostly Christian. We have a holiday once a year giving gifts to each other. Why and how can this offend anyone? And really if it offends someone good. Kiss my hairy ass.
That’s what I don’t get either. I mean, we don’t normally go up to strangers and wish them good tidings with great joy during the rest of the year, so why do people feel compelled–almost aggressively so–to do it now.
Honestly, I don’t think most people who say “Merry Christmas!” to strangers really care one way or the other about that person. Just like when I tell the cashier “Have a good evening”, I’m really just being polite rather than expressing a sincere desire that they have the best night ever. People just get a kick out of saying “Merry Christmas!” and playing into the notion that it’s the most wonderful time of the year. Which is fine, but I wish people would just admit this instead of acting like their Merry Christmases are special gifts that should be treasured.
Regularly scheduled “joy” always feel fake to me, Zoe. I understand that people naturally feel happy when they see Christmas trees and lights and all that, but for some people there’s nothing special about this time of year except that it gets really cold. I don’t get offended by “Merry Christmas”, but I don’t feel warm and tingly when I hear it either. Perhaps I’ve met too many people full of the Christmas spirit who are Scrooges the rest of the year.
Perhaps the aggressively festive could just cut to the chase and say this to folks instead of “Merry Christmas”? If ever there’s a time for honesty, surely it’s during the Christmas season.
*ETA: I should probably clarify that although I’m an atheist, I have no particular objection to “Merry Christmas”, and it doesn’t kill me to say “Thanks”, either. I **do **find very religious cards to be kind of squicky - but I try to look beyond the written message to the emotional one. I got given a handmade card that was chock-full of ‘God be with you’, and ‘Jesus’ blessings upon you’, and while I might not much care for God-In-A-Card, I’m really touched that the person cared enough to hand-make a card for me.
She won’t be getting one back, however. I draw the line at sending back messages of godly goodwill. *
Someone’s gotta ask…which song did you have on mind?
First song I thought of was Tuesday Afternoon by The Moody Blues, but I’m not sure how “happy” fits in there. Besides, that song isn’t really jaunty enough to be a Tuesday carol.
My other thought was Lazy Sunday by the Small Faces. The tune fits, so you just need to change the words around a bit and you have the perfect Tuesday carol.
Or were you thinking of another song altogether?
I’m still not grokking the outrage over being wished “Merry Christmas”. So what if you aren’t Christian? I’m not either. I have yet to suffer any physical or emotional trauma over a holiday greeting. How is it any different from Happy (insert holiday here)? Seems to me that getting all butthurt about it is just looking for something to be mad about. Why should someone have to carefully observe/research/investigate to determine the belief/cultural tradition of other people to ascertain the appropriate holiday greeting?
Somebody says Merry Christmas or Happy Spanking Day, you go “Thanks, you too” and the social intercourse is over. Save the outrage for for things that actually matter.
Not to belabor this, but I’ve certainly never objected to anyone celebrating Christmas. I’ve said over and over in this (and the other two threads) that I would never take offense at anyone celebrating in their own way. Public celebrations are fine with me. Private celebrations are fine with me. Why would I object or take offense at any of that?
But, when you continue to include me in the celebration after I’ve told you that it makes me feel uneasy (please, reread that last clause) that is the point where I get a bit upset. It’s not a big deal, but it’s real. It baffles me that this is controversial.
Some folks may have other problems with “Merry Christmas” but this is my one and only issue. Please don’t ascribe opinons to me that I don’t hold and have never expressed.
I’m pretty much an atheist. However, I don’t get offended by Christmas or people wishing me a Merry Christmas, any more than I’d get offended by someone saying “Bless you” when I sneeze.
However, one thing that has confused me is that why do people think that saying “Happy Holidays” is secular? The word “holiday” comes from “holy day.”
This from the online etymological dictionary:
“O.E. haligdæg, from halig “holy” + dæg “day;” in 14c. meaning both “religious festival” and “day of recreation,” but pronunciation and sense diverged 16c.”
Oh hey-since it starts tonight-Happy Hannukah!
For the love of Santa, why???
It’s shallora, what did you expect?
You know, if we’re going to have a War on Christmas, can’t we make it a REAL war? With guns and missiles and bombs and all that fun stuff? Otherwise, what’s the point?
Sunday Forum: The war against Christmas
MAX BLUMENTHAL tells us who started it and why it’s become such a holiday favorite
I think THIS is pretty interesting:
Hmmm…:rolleyes:
Again, missing the point completely.
That’s the Christmas spirit!
Huh. I saw all of those, so now am more bewildered. Not much to get so upset about. And I thought others were pretty pleasant.
Isn’t Telemark female?
Yeah, that’s a sure sign that it must be us. :rolleyes:
Neither. It’s just something you say during that time of the year. It’s like hello or how are you? And we don’t generally tailor our greeting to the sensibilities of the receiver in that case. We don’t say hi because the recipient can’t stand the word hello or what’s shaking? because how are you? doesn’t fit at the moment. It’s just a standard greeting, given by almost everyone you come in contact here during the holiday season.
Because you’re not actually wishing them goodwill. When someone says God bless you after you sneeze, they’re not actually hoping that God will bless them if they’re an atheist. It’s just a colloquial expression.
And oddly, these points have been made in the threads that you pointed out to me, so I’m not understanding why you either haven’t seen them or don’t agree but are not commenting on them.
It may be difficult for some to understand because all of us who aren’t Christian (and that’s most of us in these threads) have to deal with this during the holiday season and we don’t seem to have the anger that you have.
Maybe if you give an example, we could understand better. I’ll have to say, though, that I’m skeptical that any of us wouldn’t have faced the same situation without getting angry.
Because I like Santa, and he never hurt anyone.
Every year Santa exclaims ere he drives out of sight
“Happy Christmas to all, and to all a good-night.”
If you’re offended by Santa…
I’m really not seeing any anger on Telemark’s side. It’s more like an irritation. Although I could be projecting, because that’s how I would feel in this situation.
FWIW, if you get tired of picking on him/her, you can pick on me, because I feel the same way. If a cashier in a store says “Merry Christmas!” to me, I will happily smile back and say “Merry Christmas to you, too!” This person doesn’t know me or my personal beliefs and is just trying to be nice. I appreciate that.
On the other hand, it occasionally happens that some people find non-observance of Christmas to be a personal affront, like my former coworker who found it necessary to bring up multiple times that he didn’t see why Jews don’t celebrate Christmas because it’s not a religious holiday anymore, it’s an American holiday. This is just rude and disrespectful of my beliefs (or lack thereof) and I found it aggravating. If he had persistently wished me a Merry Christmas (which he didn’t; I actually haven’t had this specific experience), I would not have taken it as a kindness from a stranger, but as a pointed way of telling me how little he cared about my beliefs.
If my not wanting to be in the “Christmas spirit” somehow offends you, fuck you. Part of being an American (and AFAICT, Canadian, too) is respecting the diversity of our country(ie)s. To say otherwise implies to me that I am a lesser American because I am not a Christian, I don’t think any of you would suggest that.
(Of course, I will happily go to any Christmas party I’m invited to, participate in gift giving, and sing along to Christmas carols. Can I still be an American? THANKS.)
I’m baffled by this entire thread. If I was leaving work and casually said to someone, “Merry Christmas,” and he stopped me to tell me that he doesn’t celebrate Christmas and it makes him uneasy (
), you’re right: I probably wouldn’t say Merry Christmas to him again. I wouldn’t say anything to him, because I’d think he was a psychopath. IT’S JUST A FRIENDLY THING TO SAY!
Also, in terms of Christmas cards, I think it’s a safe assumption that the person sending them is including you because they love or care for you in some capacity. I don’t see why you’d rather be not included… but then again, I’m not socially retarded.
Why not look at it the other way, and ask why someone who is simply being wished goodwill can’t take it as such, instead of trying to turn it into something offensive?
We’re dealing with two separate scenarios here–
Scenario 1: Person A wishes person B a Merry Christmas. Person B, for whatever reason, dislikes being wished a Merry Christmas and pleasantly informs Person A of that fact. Person A is taken aback, and continues to wish Merry Christmas to person B in a pointed fashion in an effort to rile up Person B or perhaps assert cultural dominance.
Analysis: Alternately, Person A may be very absent-minded or forgetful, but I think we can agree that it’s somewhat dickish to willfully continue wishing a Merry Christmas to Person B under these circumstances.
Scenario 2: Person A wishes Person B a Merry Christmas. Person B flies off the handle, and demands that Person A respect his or her culture.
Analysis: Person B is a dreaded member of the “Offenderati” and should grow up.
Because if they know he’s made uneasy by it, it’s not done out of love or care, is it? If you know in advance that he isn’t a fan of being included in Christmas celebrations including him anyway doesn’t show any love or care at all. It’s like sending a present of meat to a known vegetarian; the present itself is perfectly ok, but sending it to someone you know is a vegetarian is an act of jerkery, not love. It’s saying “Hey, I don’t actually care what you think and feel. Nor am I willing to go out of my way one iota to show that. You’ll get what I think people should get, and you’ll be happy with it”.
I don’t celebrate Christmas but I have no problem with people wishing me merry christmas. As a matter of fact, I smile and say ‘you too’…it’s the quickest way to get a perky people person out of your face. But! I have noticed something lately that I have never shared with a single soul, because of my extreme wish to avoid someone using the word ‘offenderati’ (shudders) in reference to me.
I notice lately that some people are starting to seem to use the words ‘merry christmas’ as a weapon against those that they think might resent it.
I have a name that sounds Muslim to many ears. At work, there is a guy who has expressed certain ideas around me in the past to make me think he has some serious right wing rage going on. He pointedly says ‘Merry Christmas’ to me every single freakin day. I can not manage to smile and say ‘you too’ much longer.
Also, some of my customers on the phone have been saying it with more of an edge on calls that haven’t gone well.
I think that maybe there are some folks that are beating folks in the head with the MERRY CHRISTMAS!!! stuff, knowing that if they complain, they can blink and say, “Wow! Calm down! I only want to spread some christian cheer!”
I’m wondering if those who can’t fathom why Telemark or some others might be made uneasy by this issue are unaware of, or perhaps just not remembering, the larger context here. Even the atheists who are replying with some bemusement, e.g. “I’m an atheist and I don’t care if someone wishes me Merry Christmas,” aren’t in the same position as Jewish folks.
Let me stress that this discomfort isn’t (usually) with someone blithely wishing one and all a “Merry Christmas.” As Telemark has said, s/he doesn’t object or mind in such an instance. But someone persisting in this greeting despite knowing the recipient is Jewish (that’s the vital point) might make me a little uncomfortable and irritated as well. And I’m extremely unreligious and unobservant!
There’s an almost instinctive wariness to being a Jew in a largely Christian society. Jews have a long, long history of being pressured (at the least) to convert to Christianity. We have also, historically, been called Christ-killers. People have gotten quite angry with us for disbelieving in Christ’s divinity. Our relatives throughout the ages were at best ‘tolerated’, more often preached to and sometimes downright cursed, pushed out, and … well, I don’t want to Godwinize the thread, but we all know what else our history consists of. This is generations and generations and generations, for more than 2000 years. Many modern Jews, who’ve never been spat on or called ‘Christ-Killer’ themselves, still are all too aware of our history. And so at this time of year, when Christ is all over the place (understandably), some of us start walking around a tad nervous, a bit awkward, a bit – yes – defensive.
I can’t really explain it, but some Jews feel there’s something that seems a bit aggressive, a bit pointed, in a person who pushes the “Merry Christmas” message on a Jew whom they know doesn’t celebrate this holiday. There may be nothing behind it but genuine goodwill – it’s quite likely that’s the case – but still, that undercurrent is there.
If you are someone I know (other than a cashier or so on) and wish me a Merry Christmas, I’ll say ‘thanks, you too!’ and smile. If you wish it to me again later, I’ll probably respond with a grin and say ‘thanks! Actually I don’t celebrate it, but happy holidays to you, too!’ (Again, this depends on whether we have any kind of ongoing casual interaction; I wouldn’t say anything like this to someone in a store or a mailperson or what have you – it’d seem presumptuous to get into details about my holiday celebratory habits.)
Now, if you persist on doing so afterwards, I’ll probably still smile and thank you, but I’ll still think you’re either a) extraordinarily forgetful, b) clueless, or c) a bit of a pushy jerk. Exactly which mental label I’d use depends on how much else I know about you.
Hope this makes sense. Forgive me, Telemark, if I misrepresent anything about your feelings/beliefs. I’m just trying to express this issue from the POV of me and many other Jews I know. As always, I know I’m not speaking for the majority.
Sorry, I can’t. . . because everything you said seems pretty reasonable to me.
Just like most of us, I’d suspect.
OK, this is a pretty good example. But you can look at it like he’s being disrespectful, but more likely, it’s just that your non-conformity is making him feel uncomfortable and he’d like you to join in on the fun so that he doesn’t have to potentially change any of his beliefs about how Christmas is supposed to be a fun day for everyone.
Even if he had said Merry Christmas, that would probably just be a knee-jerk kind of thing, not intended to wound you. But since he didn’t, it sounds like it was a moot point.
This I partially agree with except I don’t know what the “Christmas spirit” is in your context.
I’ll give an example. I belong to a speech club. Every year, the theme at this time of year is, ‘what do you love about Christmas’. And every year, I give the same speech, basically saying that there’s nothing I love about Christmas. It’s my most dreaded day of the year and the thing I’m most looking forward to about it is that it’s over.
And people are very respectful about it. But if people said Merry Christmas to me after it was over, I wouldn’t get upset. They probably wouldn’t be thinking about my speech and putting that whole thing together.
So I get why people might not like Christmas, but why get upset with other people about it? They’re just doing the best they can with their own traditions. I think it’s asking a lot of them to remember your likes/dislikes. . . unless they’re really close to you or are your family.
I also want to say that I do understand the whole pressure to conform during this time of year. It can be very strong. But I don’t think the people trying to push conformity are trying to be hurtful.
That’s way more than I go along with, so I can’t possibly think that you’re being unreasonable here.
On preview: the scenarios that nameless and Revenant Threshold point out why examples are needed here because we’re all trying to guess what Telemark is talking about.
Nope.
And I’m asking people to do so. I don’t really think that’s too much to ask. And everyone who I’ve asked hasn’t had a problem with it.
I’ve never had to mention it to folks more then once or twice. There’s no anger (except in this thread) which is why I’m so confused by the response.
And choie, you said very eloquently some thoughts I’ve been unable to get on paper.
