These discussions never fail to get my blood boiling, but I’ll try to stay calm (seeing as how we’re not in the Pit… )
The one thing that always comes up, and what irritates me the most is
My parents moved to the U.S. almost thirty years ago from India, my father, by the way, is a doctor. Their English is fairly heavily accented, but they’ve done a durn good job learning on their own, IMHO. My point is that my parents had the drive to leave their families and come to a foreign nation because they didn’t want their children growing up the same way they did. I live in a fairly rural town in Illinois, and I went to school in a tiny private school in Iowa. I would hear time and again growing up about my father driving luxury cars and “those damn immigrants taking our jobs.”
Well, you know what? My parents started from nothing and now are successful and independantly wealthy because they were willing to put in the effort to work hard and do well. My brother and I do the same. He’s going into medecine, I’m planning on going into international finance. Why, might I ask, are some of my American peers unwilling to do the same?
I also found the statement you quoted from the OP highly offensive. And I am white and was born in the U.S. I’m sure goboy is a fine person, but whenever I hear these opinions expressed, I wish we could ship the expressor elsewhere. This nation is so much better because of immigrants.
tiggeril – the town where I work (not where I live, shucks) is extremely proud (and probably quite envious) of an Indian family who settled there. The patriarch (who recently died) became a doctor after coming to the U.S. All of his children became doctors. Two of them operate a clinic in town.
The family has become quite wealthy, and they’ve donated tons of money to local schools and universities, and they bought the old post office building and made it into a tea room.
I know, cynics might say they need to do these things for tax purposes, but so what? They could have taken their kids and their money and headed off for somewhere exotic (or even interesting), but they stayed in Iowa and we’re all benefitting from it.
That’s an extreme example, but the “ordinary” immigrants are doing well too. I’ve yet to meet an obnoxious newbie.
Auntie– The town where I live has a fairly large (proportionally speaking) Indian population, and there are many examples of the kind of success your anecdote is about. My family, I’m afraid, isn’t quite that well-off, but my bro and I are private-schooled all the way. I suppose that people single out the Indian doctors with the huge, multi-million dollar mansions, but what I can’t stand is when comments are made about us. We’re upper middle-class. Period. Our economic status and somewhat-conspicuous consumption is no different from the lawyer down the road, or the accountant in the next county. So why is it OK when Mr. Jones, our stockbroker drives a BMW, but worthy of negative comment when my father does the same?
I’ve also had schoolmates (make that “former” schoolmates… graduating rocks) who go on and on about how Indian are so much more intelligent. That’s not particularly true, and I hold myself up as an example. I’m a lot less intelligent than a lot of posters on this MB, and I don’t do as well in school as many of my peers. I am, however, willing to put in the extra effort that it takes to do well. That’s simply something that I was raised with. So why aren’t many Americans (“many,” NOT “all”) told that as well? What’s the deal with the sense of entitlement that seems to permeate society these days? I deserve only what I earn, not everything I want, and certainly not on a silver platter. Why do some believe that?
I have no problem with people coming into America legally. It’s the ones that come in illegaly that I don’t quite care for. I realize that they want a better life and they want the right to persue happiness and good wealth in this country, and I realize that their governments aren’t as well structured as ours (Bill of rights, Constitution, things that can’t be infringed upon.) Beleive me, I feel for them. But the world will never be one big democracy. It will never have equal economic situations in all places. And everyone can’t come to America. Illegal immigrants come over here and get a job and try to establish a family. What he/she may not realize is that they are taking a job from a natural born U.S citizen or a legal immigrant. The government needs to crack down on illegal immigration or we’re going to have a problem. Where I live, the mayor and the police force chased down around 8 illegal mexican workers, building on a ,“insert store name of your desire here,”. I was in a sense glad that they were found and that legal americans got the jobs, but I realized that they just love this country as much as I do, and I can’t blame them for that. But the U.S can’t solve all the worlds problems.
P.s- Need to crack down on drug smugglers. Support your local grass growers!
They come here illegally because they are not allowed to come in legally and that is the point I was trying to make above: that people who say “they are welcome as long as they enter legally” are thinking “and i hope the law does not allow them to enter legally” (which is pretty much what the law does).
As has been pointed out and I agree, I cannot see why a decent, honest, hard-working person should be denied the opportunity of making a living for himself and his family just because he was born elsewhere while a lazy or even criminal American citizen enjoys the right to be a burden to the society that he lives in.
I have nothing but admiration for those people that start from nothing and the next generation are stories of success. In the meanwhile you have a bunch of lazy people who can’t get off their butts and living off welfare for generations.
This was the point I was trying to make when I started this thread but it kind of degenerated.
And I will repeat it, this time seriously: They are not taking your jobs, they are doing your jobs.
Racism. Envy. I’ve read about minority groups who felt they had to hide their success, to avoid bad feelings and even retaliation.
It’s not solely a race issue though. It happened in my first husband’s family. Dad was a drunk, mom had a martyr complex, most of the kids (there were nine) didn’t finish school and have barely managed to hang on to low-end jobs. The two kids who worked hard (and one who married well) were resented by the rest of the family. When they’ve tried to help the others, they’ve been rejected. (Unless it’s an offer of money.)
Why do people resent others’ success? Even members of their own family?
First of all, that is a load of crap, and I don’t particularly enjoy having you attribute those ideas to me. Whereas some people out there favor a strict isolationist posture, I never have. My grandparents were both old world immigrants on my father’s side. They came here with nothing and worked themselves up from poverty to middle class. But you know what? They did it legally, within the system. They were as proud to become citizens as they were of their heritage. They neither abandoned the latter nor avoided the former.
Ptahlis, what makes you think I was referring to you? (I wasn’t)
And you may think it is a load of crap but I know the subject pretty well. The law is designed to let in a tiny minority and keep out a huge majority so doing it legally is not an option for most people. Most people cannot do it legally if they want to. Just like black people could not sit in the front of the bus legally.
Your family came legally? Good for them. What do you say to those who are not allowed to come legally? Sorry pal, we can’t all be equal, can we?
My question stands. Every year, people who are decent and hard working are deported because they lack a document in their pocket (which to me is what nationality is) while bums and criminals live off the taxpayer because they’re American. If you find that logical, I don’t. (And you do not want to hear my personal experience).
sailor is right on the money. In my industry, there are a lot of immigrants, and I’ve been responsible for bringing a great many immigrants here. It is an enormous amount of work for an immigrant to get in legally, and for every one that makes the grade, there are many that are exceptional and want to come but can’t. In one sense, that’s a good thing, because it ensures that only the best come here, but the threshold is quite high, and many who deserve an opportunity don’t get it.
Bill, you might want to comment on this because I think I know the subject well (being an unwanted alien myself)
The way I see it is that the law is set up much more to keep people out than to allow people in. It sets the category of immigrant visas where the wait is so long (7 or 10 years is not uncommon and from certain countries you can forget it) that it is useless to make any plans.
So people come on temporary visas (I am guessing you are familiar with H1-B) which can be renewed but only for a maximum of 6 years. So, basically these people come over, during those six years they suffer a torment of continuous bureaucracy and hope they can have an immigrant visa before the 6 years are up, if they’re lucky they get to stay, if not, they get kicked out. Nobody cares if they have a family or if their lives are disrupted.
These people, while they are on B1 visas are pretty much indentured to their company and cannot change job without losing their visa. Their situation with regards to visa renewal and work security is totally precarious and they have no security. They have to live like they may have to leave at any time.
This is not fair, and people who say “they should just respect the law” without considering that the law is unfair are being cynical. The question of this thread is not whether laws should be respected (we all agree they should) but whether the laws should allow more or fewer people in. That is the question that was asked, not if the law should be respected.
Bill H, I’d be interested in hearing your view of what I said about immigrant versus non-immigrant visas and generally about immigration policies in this country.
sailor, Sure, by definition the laws are set up to keep people out. Your description of the process is accurate: People have to qualify for an H1-B and have a company sponsor them. In my experience it takes 3-9 months to get an H1-B Visa approved. While on an H1, they can transfer to another company, but the transfer of the visa takes some time and they have to be careful. They can’t tell their current employer that they are going to leave when the transfer is complete, because the employer could freak out and fire them, and then they don’t have a job until the transfer comes through, maybe another 3 months. And then when a company puts in for a Green Card for them, they’re locked into the company until the Green Card comes through. Leaving just means starting over in the process at the next employer. You’re certainly right that the government couldn’t care less about family or disruption.
As I say, there is a benefit to the country to keep a threshold to ensure that only the best make it in, but that threshold is pretty high. And on the other side of the coin, many industries, especially mine, high-tech are going crazy because there aren’t enough qualified people around and we really need immigrants. But the government won’t increase the number of people allowed in, because people like goboy vote.
Imagine that: people who write crap like the OP who feel they are entitled to something for nothing just because they were born here get to make decisions in this country, and as direct result, people who would love to come here and make this a better place can’t get in.
It isn’t that difficult to change jobs on an H-1B, though your new employer must be willing to file the paperwork for you to do so. This isn’t a problem for most high tech workers as virtually all companies in that field are willing (hell, are forced) to sponsor aliens. It becomes a problem only once the green card process has begun because that is completely non-transferable.
But it isn’t true that the law is “set up” to force aliens to wait around forever. It happens that way because the INS has such a horrendous lack of resources. The per-country quotas are a problem, too; every country in the world is allotted the same number of (potential) immigrant visas, but a few countries (India, China, and for unskilled workers, the Philippines and Mexico) use up their quota every year and they can’t dip into the unused visas for other countries, so those folks will have to wait a few years longer than everyone else. But for immigrants from other countries the main problem is underfunding of the INS rather than a deliberate decision to make them wait around.
Of course, the underfunding is due in large part to the general anti-immigrant sentiment in the US which is really pathetic for a country that’s 95% of immigrant stock.
ruadh, I think we’re saying the same thing. The absence of immigration laws would mean anyone could come in at any time. Immigration laws are in place as I said by definition to limit the flow of people into the country. Things could be improved both by pouring more resources (or better managing existing resources) inside the INS as you point out, and increasing the quotas of those allowed in.
Both controlled by congress, which is controlled by voters.
Maybe it’s just because I’m Canadian, but I’m baffled when people sort of grudgingly accept immigration as an inevitable cost of living in a first world country, rather than celebrating cultural diversity as a strength. Just like I’m baffled when English and French-Canadians (who are not English and French, btw; they’re all a bunch of Celts!) beat each other up when in fact the bicultural fact has always been a unique strength, ever since Macdonald and Cartier, Papineau and Mackenzie, and Baldwin and Lafontaine.
“All the lessons of psychiatry, psychology, social work, indeed culture, have taught us over the last hundred years that it is the acceptance of differences, not the search for similarities which enables people to relate to each other in their personal or family lives.” - John Ralston Saul, Reflections of a Siamese Twin
Well, the diversity thing is only one part of it. Not everyone who opposes immigration is racist; the anti-immigration groups in California regularly trot out their Asian-American and Chicano members to demonstrate this point. Obviously there is a great deal of racism underlying the debate but there really are people who simply believe the US should limit immigration whether it’s of Latinos or Asians or British or Canadians.
They’re all wrong, IMHO, but they’re not all racist.
Didn’t say they were racist; just said that it’s peculiar they don’t think well of diversity. A British immigrant helps diversity in the same way as a Filipino immigrant.
)