Immigration-let 'em in or ship 'em home?

No, what I said was a load of crap was the statement that anyone who wants the aliens to come through legally was really hoping that the law would keep them all out. It’s not what I believe at all.

The system, like any other we have in place, is assuredly unfair to some. Arguing the merits and faults of the system we have today is a wholly different matter than arguing whether aliens should be let in at all. I acknowledge the fact that you have a greater knowledge of the immigration system than do I, however I still disagree that everybody in the world should have the right to go wherever they want and set up camp, whether it’s here or some other country.

Well, sure, but by the same token you could say an Alabamian in New York helps diversity, and the anti-immigration folks don’t seem to have a problem with that. In my experience, those antis who genuinely do dislike diversity would tend to oppose British immigration much less than Filipino. A large number of my acquaintances back in San Francisco are Irish or British immigrants (legal and otherwise) and they get a much easier time of it from the “send 'em back” crowd than do the Latinos. I think it’s pretty safe to say that those particular antis are racist at least on some level.

You’re probably aware of this already, but the racist antis frequently point to Canada - or specifically I should say to Québec - as an example of what goes wrong when a country isn’t homogeneous enough.

Dammit Phtalis, you snuck that in after I hit “preview” :slight_smile:

My reply was to Matt, in case anyone couldn’t tell …

oops, and sorry for misspelling your name Ptahlis …

hangs head, steps away quietly

shagadelicmysteryman said:

What kind of jingoist claptrap is this? They haven’t taken ANYTHING. They got they job because they could do it the best. If you’re so damned concerned about not getting a job because someone foreign-born may be better at it than you are, GET A FUCKING EDUCATION. If you are so concerned that you are underqualified for a job in comparison to a so-called “illegal immigrant” a) you must really be a functional retard and b) get better training. There is no conceivable mechanism by which foreign-born people “take” jobs away from people.

For the record, I say let anyone in who wants to come…

A bunch of disjoined thoughts loosely related to this subject and with no particular point to make.

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(1)
I was reminded of a song by Paul Simon called (I think) “Have a good day”. I do not have it here and I could not find the lyrics on the net but they go something like this:

god bless our standard of living
god bless the US of A
god bless the goods we were given…
and let’s keep it that way.
Have a good day…

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(2)
I just visited another forum where many illegal immigrants are discussing their woes. I was fascinated with the story of this particular girl. It was told over many posts and she was not trying to make any point, just sharing her story like the others were sharing theirs. I found it moving.

She belonged to an extremely poor family in Mexico. One day another girl said to her “we have no future here, let us go North and work for a few months so we can come back with some money”. She decided to do it but she could not tell her mother as she knew she would not let her go, so she wrote a note and handed it to her as she left. In it she told her she was not being a bad daughter but trying to help out. Her mother could not read and by the time she found out it was too late.

They hired a coyote to help them get across the border. They were terrified being only teenagers and having heard so many stories of rape and abuse. Two times they were caught and sent back but the third time they succeeded in crossing from Tijuana by some underground tunnel (I believe it was a gutter).

She got a job babysitting and housekeeping and would send as much money as she could back to her mother. Initially her intention was to return after a few months and she longed to go back but she realized if she did it would be very difficult to get back into the US. So she stayed on and months turned into years. Ocassionally she would talk to her mother on the phone.

One day her mother tells her she has some serious health problem (I think it was cancer). The daughter is terrified and doesn’t know what to do. For one thing there’s no way she can afford the operation. Then her mother tells her the truth: “All the money you were sending me, I never spent any of it, I was keeping it for you because it is yours”. So she tells her to use the money for the operation.

To make a long story short. First she marries some mexican bum who mistreats her so they do not last long and they divorce. Later she marries a gringo and now she is happily married. It sounds like she must be close to 40 now so the story takes place over 20 years.

I found her story moving especially because of the way it was told. What amazed me about the whole story is there is not a trace of bitterness of self pity or feeling the world was unfair to her. Just a joy of living and managing to get ahead with hard work.

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(3)
Obviously people with training and skills contribute to the economy but even uneducated people will contribute. What counts is an ethic of effort and work. Yes, this woman may be uneducated but it is people like these that come and do the jobs that Americans in her same situation will not do because they would rather complain about how unfair the world is.

I have profound admiration for all those Asian refugees who arrived here with nothing, not speaking a word of English, and through hard work managed to get ahead and give their children an education and a good position in life. These people with a strong work ethic are an asset anywhere.

Here in Washington DC I used to buy food from a Chinese carry out. The family lived in that one room, the elderly grandparents spoke no English, just smiled. The teenage daughter seemed to always be studying if she was not attending some customer. They were in a black neighborhood where most people would not want to open a store because it was not safe, but they tried to make a living there, where nobody else would want to do it.

One day, a teenage kid walked into the store to hold it up and shot the grandfather dead. This was 7 or 8 years ago… the store never opened again and the community lost probably the best family they had.

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(4)
The same people who today find it natural to deny someone the right to live here and make a living on account of his nationality, cannot comprehend that 100 years ago (or even today) someone might feel the same way on account of race.

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(5)
When I said immigration policy is designed to keep people out rather than admit those than admit people I meant that the purpose is to find reasons to keep you out rather than to make sure you meet the criteria that would admit you.

When I was in college we had this teacher who used to like trick questions in tests and a friend of mine put it very well: “this guy is out to find what you don’t know rather that what you do know”. In other words, his test was not designed to see if you knew what you should know to pass but rather to try to catch you and fail you.

This country’s immigration policy works on the same idea and it is enforced by petty bureaucrats who get a kick out of abusing their power.

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(6)
Getting back to immigration policy, I think rather than give H1 visas it would be better to give immigrant visas directly instead. It would save a ton of bureaucracy and would make the life of those admitted a ton easier. I say, if you have an education (and/or money to start your business) that show you will not be a charge to the country, you should be given leave to enter without further hassle.

In fact, I would go even further. I can understand some people might use the argument that you can’t just let everyone in without any limits because they would flood the country. But how about giving unrestricted access to people from any developed country (Europe, Japan, Canada, Australia etc) in exchange for reciprocity? I think that is totally viable and would not result in any major disruption. (anyone who thinks large numbers of people from those countries cannot wait to come to the US is delusional).

This would also make life easier for Americans going to those countries (and there are quite a few, my cousin who is American recently married her Dutch boyfriend in part because she was tired of having problems over there).

I am sure this open door policy would work pretty well. In Europe some years ago the richer countries were hesitant to open borders and free travel because they were afraid of a flood of people from the poorer countries. Well, finally it was done and guess what… no flood of any kind happened. People generally prefer not to move unless they are desperate.

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Well, enough musings for now, it’s coffee time for me… but I am very interested in this topic and what others have to say about it.

At my tutoring service, we see a lot of immigrant families. And a lot of the stereotypes get reinforced. But of course a ure tends to act in a certain way. That’s what we mean by ure.

We see quite a number of Chinese and Indian kids. And all their parents are pushing them hard academically. I only wish we could say the same about the white kids. Another thing that could be said is that the Chinese parents are really focused on credentials. Our joke around here is that they all want a PhD to tutor their high schooler. We’ve had them complaining that their son only got a 1400 on his SAT I.

But God bless 'em in that regard. Some of them may need to settle down and treat their kids a little more like people than possessions. But I think they really are concerned for them, and by Golly, they are going to get A’s!!

We have white kids come in again and again who have very successful parents who are just letting the kids do whatever they want in school, including (really) literally sleeping through their chemistry classes.

One of the good sides of the face-saving aspects of Asian ure is that if you care what other people think of you, you’re unlikely to act like an idiot. Similarly, I had a school counselor (Hispanic himself) tell me that the way to get Hispanic kids to behave was to say, “Does your mother know you act like this?”

So… Let 'em in, legally. But doesn’t there have to be some sort of a limit? We can’t absorb all of ____________ (fill in name of country) immediately.

As of now, we can hardly find people to do the jobs that need doing. So what would we do without qualified immigrants?

I did not start this thread to bash immigrants. I am glad to have folks come and invigorate this nation. I’m talking about assimilation. i also know how it feels on the other side.
I spent the years from 1993 to 1999 living and working in South Korea, teaching English at a language school. I lied with Koreans, I spoke(and still speak) Korean, and I tried very hard to assimilate with the culture while I was there. It was impossible to do because Koreans are extemely ethnocentric, and anyone who is not Korean is made to feel the difference, like being barred from entering clubs and bars because one is foreign, by having strangers start fights on the street with you because they don’t want foreigners polluting their land.
Foreigners can’t buy land in Korea. Foreigners have to be thumbprinted and show ID cards if a policeman asks. After all the hassles I went through living in Seoul and Taejon, I believe Koreans have it extremely easy here. I also think it would be nice if they leanred English, since I went to the trouble to study Korean.
Bill H., have you lived abroad for the best part of a decade? Do you know what it feels like to negotiate your life every day in a different language? Have you had the police refuse to help you because “Americans should not be in Korea”? (A Korean cop told me that when I was robbed)
For the record, I support legal immigration, but I also think that if we have enclaves of immigrants who refuse to learn English and support the US, it will harm us in the long run.
To Bill H:
When you posted items like,

and

[quote]

I’m sure goboy is a fine person, but whenever I hear these opinions expressed, I wish we could ship the expressor elsewhere.[/quote} you displayed ignorance of my intent in posting the OP. You owe me an apology.

goboy, on what basis do you state that there are hordes of immigrants “refusing” to learn English? The fact that the ones you encounter may not speak it very well proves nothing but that they have not yet mastered it, not that they are not even trying to do so.

**

Reminds me of the cheech and chong video, Born in East LA. I have to agree with you. No quotas.

On your last post Sailor. Very well spoken. I would only add this. Why only open doors to Well off countries? There are many americans who ould love to go and live and work in Mexico or Guatamala or Brazil. And as you said

**

Most people would stay put. Would we really see that much of an increase in immigration?

It seems to me that the wise thing to do is to open the borders more and register people entering the country. Doesn’t it make more sense to increase taxpayers rather than having a bunch of illegals?

Teh only problem I can see is the massive strain on social services. My wife and mother work for free clinics and state facilities and many of teh people who show up are immigrants.

I don’t care if they come here, but I don’t want to pay their medical bills.

I believe that immigrants add much more to the economy than they take in social services. I know that’s the case in CA at least, even for illegal immigrants. And yet people still want to cut them off benefits. I’ve always preferedd the term “undocumented citizens” myself. Yes, I know it’s PC. I have no problem refering to the act of illegal immigration but I have a problem refering to a person as illegal. They aren’t illegal, they just broke the law. And MR. Z’s idea seems good. Let them all in but keep track of everyone.

One thing I find pretty stupid is making it incredibly difficult to come in… so you get many illegals… and every few years you have to give an amnesty because you can’t have them being illegals forever. So what happens is the guy who came in illegally gets a green card and the guy who abided by the law and left when it was his turn to leave gets nothing. I cannot think anything more rewarding of breaking the law.

goboy wrote

Clearly your intent is different from the words in your OP, and I apologize. However, you should try to modify your writing style; my criticism of your statements stands.

Immigrants are (mostly) fine upstanding, hardworking people, and the salt of the earth, but we only have so much room. As we can’t ship out the large # of worthless parasites that
are citizens only because of their lucky chance of being born here, we have to do something. Thus we have 2 choices: close the borders, or mandatory birth control. Now, I kinda lean toward the 2nd, but as it is of doubtful Constitutionality, our only choice is the 1st. The USA is lucky as we have nearly a ZPG, not counting immigration- when the other nations of the world have the same, we can all go live anywhere we want. Until then, we can’t let EVERYONE live here.

Oh, and virtually NO-ONE pays in more taxes than they recieve in benefits. This includes immigrants, ME, and likely YOU.

Ruadh wrote:

In Annandale, VA, near DC, you can find blocks of stores and restaurants with signs in Korean only. In other cites, you’ll find Mexican, Guatemalan, Salvadoran, or Honduran barrios with signs only in Spanish. Just try having signs only in English in their countries.
[Rant]
I just find it ironic that a people as xenophobic as the Koreans are allowed to do what we could not do in Korea. Koreans can buy land here, foreigners can’t buy land or own businesses in Korea. Koreans don’t have to carry Alien Registration Cards on them to be examined by policemen on demand. Koreans have equal recourse to the law here; foreigners cannot get police protection in Korea. A foreigner walking with a Korean girl in Seoul can guarantee that some drunk guy will call her a “yang galbo” and start a fight. Life for Koreans in the U.S. is easy compared to life for an American in Korea. [/rant]
Do you know what bothered me enough to write the OP? The sight of pro-Elian demonstrators in Havana waving Cuban flags. People who have lived in America for forty years, who became citizens, who have founded businesses and raised familes waving Cuban flags bothered the hell out of me. It showed me that they are not loyal Americans, that they are just refugees waiting to go back to Cuba as soon as Castro falls.
If I had emigrated to Canada and had been welcomed there and had become a citizen, I’d damn sure be waving a Canadian flag. It seems to me that if you take the oath of citizenship, you are supposed to embrace this nation.
America is, next to Canada, the most welcoming nation on Earth. Immigrants have economic and personal freedoms here they could never had in the native countries. Is it really such an imposition that they learn the language, that they
assimilate into the US, that they become loyal citizens?
America is more than a place, it’s an idea. I have traveled through Asia, Europe, North Africa, and Central America, and I haven’t found a single country that is as free or has such open borders to immigrants as the US.

As someone who’s family emigrated to this country in the late 1920’s - just before the Great Depression shut down immigration up until the 1970’s…

Despite the truth that almost all immigrants, legal and illegal are hardworking, they have a substantial impact on local labor markets. I’m astounded how the simple law of supply and demand is ignored by so many. Immigrants, just like the bulge of the baby boomers, tend to depress wages. This provides an incentive for small and large companies to wink at the existing immigration laws.

On the Delmarva pennisula, for example, for decades, black Americans worked in chicken processing factories handling the backbreaking, never-ending processes of meat preparation. Descendents of slaves from the very farms that now produce huge amounts of poultry, these black workers, had little skill, little education, and of course, suffered the burden of discrimination from a social structure dominated by the white land and factory owners. These black workers were active in the civil rights movement, indeed there were a number of riots in this rural area. They were also active in attempting to better their wages, and working conditions, despite the all-too often cat calls that such efforts illustrate laziness.

Starting in the late 1980’s, immigrants (at first legal) began to filter into the Delmarva poultry factories. For these people, with little skill, the hard conditions and (to them) high wages of the poultry plants were a bonanza. Many signed up for more than one shift. Many brought their relatives up (perfectly legal). In many cases, labor productivity increased, although wages did not. And union activity (a crime in many Latin countries) effectively ended. Not surprisingly, profits haved soared.

So now, in the last year of the 20th century, immigrants fill most of the process positions in poultry plants. The small towns struggle to teach children not just English but the entire educational culture (that is usually deliberately ignored in the feudal countries of Central America). And what of the African-Americans who filled many of these jobs? Some have stayed in the plants, watching inflation slowly erode their paychecks. Others have moved on in search of other low-skilled work.

So, immigration is not just a question of racism, nor whether certain people are more worthy than others. The real question is whether the surge in immigration is exploiting the immigrants and displacing segments of the domestic labor force. It’s quite conceivable that when current immigrants (or their children) begin to agitate for higher wages (in factories, as janitors, as nannies, as day-care workers, even as software programmers) will they too be displaced by another wave of immigration?

I live in a mexican immigrant community. I can tell you, they are not being exploited. Rather they are exploiting our system (not necesarily in a way that is to our detriment, mind you.)

They can make per hour what they would make in a week in CHihuahua. Many of them work here seasonally and after 10-15 years, go back home, buy a home and retire.

While they are here, they provide cheap labor for us, depress wages, and use our medical services, roads and police.

Now, whether the cheap labor and the money they spend balances out their use of services I just don’t know. But I know they do not pay taxes. They usually get paid in cash which goes back with them to Mexico.

Oops, I meant to write Miami, not Havana.

If they had a large enough English-speaking expat population centred in a particular area, they probably would have signs only in English in that area.

I’ll repeat the question. How does this show that they’re refusing to learn English? Where is it written that you cannot speak your native language, even amongst other native speakers, when you’re in another country? Did you refuse to speak English in Korea even to the other native English speakers you encountered?