sorry I meant to add this.
How about this. We will make it fair. I’ll give you a minimum wage, and each member of your family can give me 45,000 a year. That’s about what undocumented immigrants contribute to the economy.
Yes, I do own this country. So does every other citizen of the US. We, the people of the United States own this country, not the government. that’s something liberals have yet to learn.
Accusations of racism are unfounded and unfair, and you had better apologize. I admire American diversity. I just don’t believe we can take in everyone who wants to come here.
I find your statistics highly suspect, but I’m going to have to get back to you after a little research. In the meantime, you want to keep this civil?
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Ah yes, the right of birthright. I was born here so I have more of a right to be free of oppression than you do. Sorry, you should have been born here. I’d really like to help you out of poverty but, you were just born in the wrong country.
What a load of crap. And by the way I don’t think the government has anymore right to say who can and can’t live in this country. The problem with anti-immigrantionists (I won’t say right-wingers cause many of them are on the left :rolleyes: ) is that they believe they are entitled to something special just because of where they were born.
Actually, I didn’t come out and say you were a racist. I just stated what it seems, from many past posts, your postion is. If you want to call it racist so be it, but the truth is that your position is the position of the Ku Kluk Klan and every other ignorant redneck out there. You may not be racist, but you certainly aint hurting them.
Hey we can keep it civil, just keep your facts straight.
If you had read the OP, you would realize I’m 50% Choctaw
so I don’t think you you’ll find me in favor of lily-white anything. I defy you to find one post to the contrary.
How on earth is questioning immigration equivalent to joining the KKK? Seeing how I’m a product of an interacial marriage, I don’t think those boys would be too happy with me.
Here are some stats for you.
An estimated 6 million people, mostly Mexicans, work in the United States without legal authorization.
Given the reaction here, that number will swell on the prospect of another amnesty. Labor leaders say they
didn’t intend for this to happen
San Diego Union Tribune
May 29, 2000
[/quote]
I can go on. Why don’t you get your facts straight?
I did. You didn’t contradict any facts I put forward. If you noticed the quote even talked about education. The cases of TB indicate that we need to make health services more available to undocumented immigrants.
And the government needs to help out counties like Dade with more money.
Of course you only posted statistics for several indicidual counties not even nationwide. So we can’t even guess what your statistics mean.
Remember this quote
I guess not.
With my tax dollars.
Again, with my tax dollars.
My stats show specific instances of immigrants getting benefits.
No, it’s not.
[quote]
Costs Table from the October 1996 Huddle Study
Program (amounts in billion $s) Legal Illegal Total
Public Education K-12 $14.38 $5.85 $20.23
Public Higher Education $5.55 $0.71 $6.26
ESL and Bilingual Education $2.82 $1.22 $4.04
Food Stamps $2.81 $0.85 $3.66
AFDC $2.71 $0.50 $3.21
Supplemental Security Income (SSI) $2.76 _____ $2.76
Housing $2.37 $0.61 $2.98
Social Security $21.92 $3.61 $25.53
Earned Income Tax Credit $3.69 $0.68 $4.37
Medicaid $11.43 $3.12 $14.55
Medicare A and B $5.49 $0.58 $6.07
Criminal Justice and Corrections $2.32 $0.76 $3.08
Local Government $15.32 $5.00 $20.32
Other Programs $18.41 $9.25 $27.66
Total Costs $111.98 $32.74 $144.70
Less Taxes Paid $82.38 $12.59 $94.97
Net Costs of Direct Services $29.60 $20.16 $49.76
Displacement Costs $10.96 $4.28 $15.24
All Net Costs $40.56 $24.44 $65.00
Percent of Net Costs 62.4% 37.6% 100%
It’s not just your tax dollars, undocumented citizens pay taxes too. Of course your tax dollrs are also supporting israeli citizens in Israel, feeding hungry people in Africa, and providing free drugs to American citizens. I get it, you only want your tax dollars to go to you. In fact let’s abolish taxes altogether since you don’t like where they are going. The figures for immigration, taken from a UCLA study, included all undocumented immigrants.
Here is a link to the Cato institute, a right wing think tank that debunks some key elements of your huddle study
http://www.cato.org/pubs/policy_report/pr-immig.html#contents
We can go back and forth with statistics and facts. But it all comes down to the fact that you don’t want non-assimilated foreigners around you and will try to come up with statistics to prove your position. I don’t care, they have a positive effect on our environment and I welcome them even if they do present a drain on the system. They don’t, but I don’t care.
Again, watch who you accuse of xenophobia. I lived for six years in South Korea, I speak fluent Spanish, French, and Korean, and I can buy beer and ask directions AND understand the replies in half a dozen more. I am all for diversity, but don’t expect me to pay for benefits for illegal immigrants.
And I’m closedminded? :rolleyes:
And, yes, I want immigrants to speak English. When I travel, I speak the local language, even if it’s lifted from a phrasebook. When they come to my country, immigrants should speak my language. If nothing else, it’s at least courteous.
Well yes you are. But, more importantly you do not seem to be aware of the defintion. It’s the opposite of open-minded. Open-minded means being receptive to new arguments or ideas. the quote you took from me said nothing of not being receptive. It simply stated that even if undocumented immigrants were a drain or our rescources I would welcome them.
Since this board is about fighting ignoracne I thought I’d enlighten you.
Holy smokes! I’m running to close the windows cause I know it’ll be raining fire any minute. I just opened this thread for the first time in weeks to discover that oldscratch and I are in the same corner.
goboy, your race does not make you incapable of racism. Your multi-lingual abilities do not make you more knowledgable of the economics of immigration.
Earlier, you demanded an apology for my branding you a racist. I apologized and told you to watch your language. Well, here you go again. You’re smelling like a skunk. And I don’t give a damn who your daddy is and what color his skin is. It ain’t making the stench go away.
The rolleyes referred to the “I don’t care” part of your post, indicating that you had already made up your mind.
If you want to fight ignorance, you might want to start with your spelling.
Wow. Bill. First Mr. Z and now you. I’m just agreeing with everyone of late. That’s the problem with being a socialist. We hate the government even more than you right-wingers do. It means we tend to be on the same side alot.
As for you goboy. If the best you can do is insult someone’s spelling you should get the hell out of Great Debates. I could go around finding every instance of a mis-spelling by you too. But, I haven’t the time for that kind of petty shit.
Once again you seem to be unaware of what you speak. Being closeminded would indicate that I refuse to look at the facts of the otherside, or refuse to acknowledge that undocumented immigrants are a drain on society. Give me some credible proof and I’ll do just that. However, that won’t change my stand on immigration. You on the otherhand refuse to let any information get in the way of your closeminded belief that immigration is tearing America apart.
That my petty friend, is closed-minded.
I am no right-winger, I hew to no party line or ideology. I make my own decisions based on the right evidence. Besides, gay guys like me are not loved by the right-wing.
I apologize, it was a cheap shot.
[quote]
Being closeminded would indicate that I refuse to look at the facts of the otherside, or refuse to acknowledge that undocumented immigrants are a drain on society. Give me some credible proof and I’ll do just that. However, that
won’t change my stand on immigration.
You just proved my point.
Nonsense. I’m opinionated, not closedminded. You have failed to muster any evidence to convince me of the rightness of your position. I am willing to reverse my views if you can show me I’m wrong. You have handed me one really dodgey set of numbers from a biased source. I, however, have given several specific, sourced instances to back up my statements.
In addition, if I can’t poke fun at your spelling, why do you get to call me names?
**
Well I was talking to Bill H. who is not so much a right-winger as on the far right. Libertarians tend to be pretty supportive of gays overall. At least in my experience.
So you are saying that if we proved that undocumented immigrants add more to the economy than they took away your viewpoints would change. Have you read the cato study. They are generally quite reputable, since you refered to only one set of numbers I take it you didn’t. Go back and read that study. If you take issue with any of it post your problems.
Again, Bill, find a racist post I’ve written. Oldscratch accused of me of wanting a lily-white America, and I let hin know why he was wrong. Why on Earth do you two think American national identity has ANYthing to do with race? You can be any color and come from any country and be a loyal American, unlike Oldscratch, who said in another thread that he holds dual Irish/US citizenship and he’s going for Dominican citizenship.
During the last great immigration wave from 1880 to 1920, new immigrants were encouraged to learn English and fit into the larger American society. I’m reversing one position to say we should channel tax dollars into ESL classes for new immigrants and we should make the citizenship process easier.
Granted. I’m currently reading the Cato Institute link that Oldscratch provided(it’s a loooong document), and if I’m wrong, I’ll say so. In other posts in this thread, I have already acknowledged the valuable contributions of immigrants to our society. However,I have yet to be convinced that illegals contribute more than they take out. I have not yet finished reading the Cato paper that is supposed to convince me otherwise. You two, however, are smug, self-righteous, and absolutely convinced you are 100% right without any need to consider any evidence that might contradict your already made-up minds.
What stinks is your taste for lies, deliberate misrepre- sentation of my position,and ad hominem attacks. I’ll repeat myself one more time.
I am all for American racial and cultural diversity. I am against folks who expect me to speak their language in my country. That’s not racist. English is a language, not a race. I dare you to find one post that supports white supremacy. That’s something I absolutely oppose.
I am for folks who come here wishing to work and contribute to America. I’m against folks who come here looking for a free ride.
I believe in assimilation, not segregation. I believe that anyone who wishes to be a citizen must forswear all allegiance to another country. I believe in racial intermarriage and the breaking down of racial barriers in America. I believe that America, like the Borg, should assimilate the technological and biological uniqueness of other countries into our own. I believe that all the different heritages in America must work together, not separately. You guys might approve of ghettoization, but I don’t
I believe English should be the sole language used for public business. You can speak whatever you like at home, but if you can’t also speak English, you can’t vote or get a driver’s license.
Actually, RickJay’s post has come the closest to convincing me I could be mistaken. He wrote a persuasive, yet polite, well-reasoned argument.
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Ok. I’ll admit I have no loyalty to America. But, what makes you think that someone can’t have citizenship in two countries and be loyal. Many Domincans are intesly loyal, they just want to be able to improve the lot of Dominicans too. Do you think that if someone comes here they should completely stop caring about their heritage? I don’t think your that reactionary. Even the US government doesn’t take that position.
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Actually they were incouraged to know english already. If they did people who thought much like you stigmatized them and beranded them mentally defective.
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I just haven’t seen any convincing arguments. I’ve seen a lot of opinions and circumstational evidence. But, no convincing.
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But, your position actually keeps that from happening. With your position SF wouldn’t have the culinary diversity it has today. It wouldn’t have the cultural diversity. Why? Because many immigrants are brave enough to go to a foreign country where they don’t know the language and believe they can make it. And you know what. A lot of them do. Most people assimilate within a generation or two regardless of the pressure placed on them. If they don’t want to speak english don’t talk to them. No one is forcing you to go to their business. I personally have no problem with it. You do. Go to someplace like Kansas where you don’t have to deal with foreigners who don’t assimilate.
Why should someone who can’t speak english not be able to get a drivers licence. Does not speaking the language somehow impare their abillity to drive? I mean I disagree with the voting, yeah that’s bigoted. But, the Drivers licence just doesn’t make sense. Should foreign tourists be denied the ability to rent cars because they don’t speak the language?
I was thinking more of not having to have road signs in 10 languages, but yeah, if you can’t read street signs, you’re going to have problems.
When I worked at Phantom Ranch at the Grand Canyon, one of the requirements for mule riders was comprehension of spoken English. Was that bigoted? No, because sometimes there are emrgencies on the trail, and if a tourist does not understand the mule guide’s instructions, the consequences could be catastrophic.
Would you drive in China if you couldn’t read the street signs or directions? Do you think you could be a danger to yourself or others?
oldscratch
Huh? The fact that English contains non-quote-literal words means that I am not adept at English? How does that work?
No, someone who has immigrated with permission is an illegal immigrant. An illegal driver would be someone who is driving without permission, i.e. without a liscense.
You have suggested that people should just be able to walk into the US and unilaterally decide to be citizens. That sure sounds like “taking” to me.
Even if it is normal, it is still incorrect.
It is you thawt does not understand private and public property. Private property is owned by individuals. Public property is owned by communities, and those can decide who gets to use it. The books in a public library are public property, but many places you must be a resident of the city or county to have a library card.
It’s not just that they were born here, it’s that they were born here and the previous generation decided to give citizenship to those that were born here. Since the previous generation were the legitimate owners of this country, they have every right to decide to whom it should go.
Yes, it does. What if they get in an accident or are pulled over by a cop? Should every motorist have to learn how to say “Can I see you license and insurance information” in every single language?
Anyone who thinks unregulated immigration is a good idea, just isn’t paying attention. Honest. It is also true that 0 immigration is a bad idea.
The argument is not whether immigrants help or hurt–it is WHICH ones. The correct paradigm is the melting pot. But at this point, we let in increasingly diverse and increasingly poor immigrants who cluster together and couldn’t care less about being Americans.
Let’s keep letting immigrants in–let’s just be more selective about who. By all means, take the French computer scientist. But --let’s be blunt–about 40% of Dominican Republicans are on welfare and they’re staying there for the foreseeable future. Was that a good idea?