Becoming an American is an ideological decision. It is not ludicrous to expect new immigrants to be loyal to their new nation; heck, it even explicitly says that in the citizenship oath. Is that all America means to you- a place to make money? If so, I pity you.
You’re not reading what ruadh posted goboy. Ruadh didn’t state that America was all about making money. The post stated “the economic opportunities and political freedoms it offer”. Are you saying that people shouldn’t try to better their lives?
I can think of many reasons I would want to live in a country and become a citizen. Not one of them involves becoming as you said a “convert”
Maybe you think it should be, but your idealistic opinion is not necessarily real life.
How are they being “disloyal”?
Let’s face it guys, there are plenty of american citizens born in this country who are more than happy to bash the United States.
To listen to some of them, the US is a pit of murderous, misanthropic philistines.
I would expect that somebody who came from a poor country run by tyrants would kiss the ground once they got here, and some do. For others, we are devils. People will be people. But if they do hate it here, surely it was a decision based on finance and survival.
Just thought of something else.
If Koreans are so unwelcoming to foreigners in their own country, is it not possible that maybe they just assume the natives in America will not want to mingle with them either? Is it not also possible that maybe the treatment they receive from many of the Americans they do encounter merely further that impression?
Ruadh, you seem to have some animus against the United States. Why is it wrong to expect new citizens to speak our language and accept our customs? Your situation in Ireland is not analogous to mine in Korea because a) I assume you’re there temporarily, not an immigrant, and b) Irish folks speak English and are Caucasian, so you blend in. Try living in a monoracial country where you stick out like a sore thumb. I have had Korean adults feel my arms in the subway(I’m a hairy guy) and call me a monkey! I have have had drunk Korean guys start fights because I was a foreigner in their country. That ever happen to you in Dublin?
There are ignorant Americans who no doubt make racist comments to Asians, but, trust me, over there, racism and discrimination are a daily pain.
Well, since I’ve asked you two or three times for your evidence that they aren’t even TRYING to learn English, I guess I shouldn’t even expect an answer any more.
Now hold on a minute there sparky. Did you not just tell me a few posts back that it was OK that you didn’t stop speaking English entirely when you were in Korea PRECISELY BECAUSE of the fact that you weren’t an immigrant?
FTR, I do hope to stay here long enough to get citizenship. But I’m not going to stop eating bagels, drinking automatic-drip coffee and checking the web for the latest MLB standings even after I do so. Nor do I think any of the Irish I know would expect me to. Why is it only Americans that expect immigrants to lose their native culture completely?
Hello, genius, that’s part of my point. It’s relatively easy for me to blend in with the natives; I’m not ostracized by them; and as a result I don’t feel the need to spend as much time around my “own kind”. Why else do you think Western European immigrants to America assimilate more easily than others?
I’ll give you the Cubans. And assuming that the Mexicans in LA were in fact immigrants, OK, I’ll give you that too. But most immigrants don’t behave that way, and you STILL seem to think they’re “disloyal” if they don’t speak perfect English, and if they spend too much time with their homeboys. Which makes me wonder what you think “loyalty” really is - complete uniformity? Ugh.
From what I have seen.
2nd generation immigrants no matter what country they come from hate to speak their parent’s language. That includes Germans, Koreans, Persians, Chinese, Spanish speakers, etc. I just met a 2nd gen. East Indian lady today who spoke perfect English. If I were blind, I’d never know what race she was.
Those businesses who advertise in their native languages are only for 1st generation immigrants.
America is the best country in the world to live in. That’s why everybody wants to come. But I don’t know the answer to the question either. Obviously immigration is good. We need new blood and new immigrants who pay taxes to pay for our social security system! But it’s like traffic signals on free way on ramps. You can’t let everybody come in at once, it would swamp the system. And illegals should be punished, otherwise they’d just be flaunting our immigration laws. Most of all they use our services without paying for it. Like people who come across the border for ER and leave, we’re left with the bills. I’m in business, all my views have a financial slant to them.
Ruadh, you want to cut the personal abuse? We’re not in the Pit and I’ve been polite to you.
As for evidence that Korean immigrants, I have already given you personal anecdotes. I have absolutely zip as far as studies, surveys, or anything concrete and objective. I already acknowledged that. I have said several times that I am giving you my subjective impressions.
goboy, you’ve said you don’t have any more than a subjective opinion - fair enough. Yet how do you expect to persuade people that your opinion is more valid than their own? If I say, “immigrants should not have to totally immerse themself in their new country’s culture” and you say, “yes they should”, there’s nothing there to make me believe that your viewpoint, valid thought it is, is any more “correct” than my own.
Since there seem to be no commonly agreed facts or statistics that you, ruadh, or anyone else here can base a debate on, is it really worth continuing solely with “my opinion vs. your opinion”?
PS what “personal abuse” were you referring to?
PPS Major Feelgud - don’t assume that the US is the best country in the world to live in. This has already been crossed in a thread some time back - and not everyone else in the world agrees with you. I’ll dig it up if I can find it.
You’re absolutely right. Mostly, I have been airing long-suppressed anger at how easy Koreans have it here in the US compared to how difficult life was for me and other foreigners in Seoul.
As for personal abuse, Ruadh’s last post seemed to drip with condescension and contempt. I found her tone offensive, plus she misrepresented my views, although I acknowledge I should have written more clearly.
Ruadh, nobody in Ireland will keep you from eating bagels, drinking automatic-drip coffee and checking the Web for the latest MLB standings, nor should they. I would never ask anyone here to stop watching Arab TV or to stop following football standings of the Korean Football League.
On the other hand, when you become an Irish citizen, are you going to fly an American flag in your yard, or will you be a good citizen and fly the Irish flag? Are you going to make some effort to adapt to Irish society?
Let me reiterate my points before I give up this thread:
I know what it is like to have to adapt to living as a foreigner in a country where I have a different race/culture/language. I learned the language and the culture and tried to fit in despite significant rejection and bigotry.
I see churches where the sermon is preached in Korean, where shopping is done in Korean, where the community keeps itself separate from the rest of us. I draw the conclusion that they are not trying to learn English, for if they were they would immerse themselves in the language like I did in Seoul, not have separate Korean-language institutions. All I have to offer are my subjective impressions, I have no serious studies, surveys or other objective evidence to offer.
There’s not much point in pursuing this, for Ruadh will write another snide and sarcastic post. This whole discussion, in fact, got seriously off-topic. I opened this up to ask questions, not to elicit knee-jerk reactions. I’m done.
Um, I find that most often immigrants do not become americanized, it’s the kids that end up that way. My neighbors down the street don’t speak English very well, yet their 10 year old speaks perfect 10 yr old kid english, loves Britney spears, pokeman, pizza, swimming, and is the same as every other kid on the block.
Sorry goboy, I was cranky the other night. Try not to take it personally.
The two things aren’t mutually exclusive, you know.
To answer your question, I’m not the sort to fly a flag, period, but I don’t think anyone would be unduly bothered if I did. The Irish fly the tricolour wherever in the world they go, and why shouldn’t they? Expressing your love for your native country DOES NOT equal disparaging your adopted country. I really do not understand your difficulty with this concept.
I did a short course in Madrid a couple years ago, and I still have friends there who I go back to visit from time to time. The American/British/Irish I know there all want to learn Spanish. Some of them are taking lessons; others can’t afford to, or can’t find time because they work so hard. But even those who are actively studying the language still usually prefer to communicate with other English speakers in English; it’s just easier if you haven’t achieved fluency in the other language. This doesn’t mean they don’t really want to learn Spanish; I know for a fact that they do and therefore I simply can’t agree with you that these Koreans are demonstrating a lack of interest in learning English. You may feel they aren’t making a sufficient effort to learn it, but you shouldn’t assume this means they aren’t interested.
language skills, like any other, vary. I pick up language very easily. My wife, though brilliant, can’t. Neither immersion nor classes can help some folks
Good point, Mr Z.
My two flatmates (one is Irish, one was born in England and raised in Ireland) just came home, so I decided to ask their opinions on the flag thing. Here’s the conversation:
Me: If you walked past somebody’s house, here in Ireland, and saw they were flying an American flag, what would you think? Or, say, a French flag or a Dutch flag?
Flatmate #1: I’d think they were American.
Flatmate #2: Or French or Dutch.
Me: Would you be offended?
Both: No.
Me: Would you think “they’re in Ireland, they should be flying an Irish flag”.
Both (laughing): No.
F1: Why?
Me: I’m in a debate with someone on the message board who thinks it’s awful that people immigrate to America and still fly their native country’s flag.
(shocked look on both faces)
F1: **** ***** [deleted since we’re not in the Pit]. Christ almighty.
F2: That’s silly.
Of course they felt that way! IT is well known that the Irish are drunk all the time…and they breed like rabbits. They don’t have time to worry about flags when they are knocked up drunk and planning to blow up Parliament! 
Well, here’s at least one person who hasn’t bothered to learn English. A “citizen” is a member of a nation. Illegal aliens are not citizens. Citizenship is something that government decides to gives, not something a person decides to take. And breaking the law is illegal. Duh.
You don’t seem to be to adept at the english language yourself. How many black people are actually “black”, how many whites are actually “white”. And since breaking the law is illegal I can now refer to anyone who has speeded as and illegal driver. Yeah, that sounds real great. I never said that someone could take citizenship. However, refering to someone as an “undocumented citizen” is the normal phrase.
Illegal aliens are not citizens, undocumented or otherwise.
The status of illegal aliens is a tough problem. On the one hand, illegals do the scut work that nobody else will do. They pick our crops, they clean our hotel rooms, mop our floors, and are the backbone of the meat industry. You have to admire their hard work and determination to succeed.
On the other hand, they are straining our social services net to the breaking point. We simply don’t have the room to absorb the entire population of Central Americans who wish to come here. Social services have to come from taxes and illegals don’t pay any.
I’m moving into your house tomorrow, Oldscratch, because it’s bigger and nicer than mine. I’ll clean the place for you, but you have to feed me, clothe me, and educate my kids on your nickel. Then, I’ll bring the rest of my family with me so you can take care of them, too.
I’m not going to obey your house rules because they conflict with my culture. I’m going to make you speak my language if you want to talk to me.
I’ll work really hard for you and do all the unpleasant chores, but I won’t contribute to household expenses. You have to pay for everything, including my kids’ school fees.
After all, I’ll be an undocumented resident of your house, so you owe me and all my relatives who will be living with us a good life.
**
Yes you do.
**
You do not know what you are talking about. Undocumented immigrants put much more into the system than they take out. Most still pay all of their taxes, but because they are not recognized as citizens they can’t reap the benefits of them.
Well, you seem to be unable to grasp the difference between public property and personal property. You do not own this country. And much as you’d like to see it restricted to only lilly white people or those who speak english perfectly it will not happen. Maybe if you do save up enough and buy the country you can do so. Good luck. :rolleyes: