The Protocols of the Elders of Zion would be another good comparison and a more specific item in those false justifications for antisemitism. It’s a clearly fraudulent text that was at one point widely believed not just as national hearsay, but international.
- My point is that your claim is that an “absense of [archeological!] evidence” for the Exodus proves that the events didn’t happen. I am saying, please read the books that argue the opposing side before making that claim.
I am simply not an expert in archeology. I came here to defend the Kuzari proof. You haven’t responded directly to the Kuzari proof. Instead, you argued that it is imporable that the Exodus happened, since, e.g., the Egyptians didn’t record it. That’s not a response to Kuzari, of course. Why? Because even if you are right (and you aren’t) that it is NOT PROBABLE that an “UNRECORDED EXODUS” took place, once I bring powerful evidence that it did happen, we must trust the evidence, since powerful evidence is capable of proving even unprobable events. The only question remains is whether the Kuzari evidence is powerful enough. And that you haven’t dealt with.
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I will say a couple of noteworthy points about archeology (I am typing from memory, so I might be making a mistake). A) The Bible describes the Patriarchs ONLY in Southern Israel, never, not once, in Northern Israel. Why? Archeologists tell us that Northern Israel was unpopulated during the era of the Patriarchs. B) The Bible tells us that Jacob died on a bed in Egypt (it never uses a bed when in Israel). During the patriarchal era, only Egyptians, not Cannanintes, used beds. C) The Bible says that foriegn slaves built Pi-Rameses before the traditional time of the Exodus. Archeological evindence says that, indeed, the “Habiru” built Pi-Rameses during that era. D) Only Egyptians used [if memory serves] straw when making bricks. The Cannanites never used straw. The Bible says that the Hebrews used straw. Archeology says that the “Habiru” used straw to make bricks. E) Biblical names such Moses, Pinhas, and Shirfa - Biblical personalities who were born in Egypt - all have Egyptians names of that era.
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I want to clarify a point about “commemorated” history. My point isn’t that the Jews commemorated their history. Not would not be evidential. My point is that the Jews believe that the Jews commemorated their national events during the same generation that they saw the miracles and they were commanded to keep commemorating those events “forever.” That would make it difficult for future genrarations to accept this false history, since they would have asked, “Where are those everlasting commemorations.”
I am not claiming that the Kuzari evidence is mathematical proof; some guys here have made that error. But it is evidence which has never shown itself to be false. If that is not enough, what can be?
I think War of the Worlds actually verifies my point. They believed the story, because it was describing events that they didn’t see (it was describing events that happened in other cities, if memory serves). If War of the Worlds would have claimed, however, “THERE IS AN ALIEN ON EVERY CITY BLOCK IN THE UNITED STATES,” they would have lauged at it.
It can’t be proven true or false because it doesn’t qualify as evidence at all.
Several other people have. Would you care to respond to them?
He has not said it’s improbable because the Egyptians didn’t record it. That’s a narrower statement you have used repeatedly. What said was that there is no archaeological evidence, including Egyptian records but also including physical evidence.
I’ve read this several times and I can’t make any sense of it. Regardless, you haven’t brought any powerful evidence. You’ve made a claim about “national events” which you have failed to support.
People have already posted several examples of false “national events.”
It would be much easier for you to actually present the evidence. This is a discussion board, not a book club.
This is not what I’ve said, and it’s not the first time I’ve corrected you. The evidence against the Biblical Exodus is not limited to what the Egyptians did or did not record, but the lack of any archaeological trace of the Israelites’ physical existence in Egypt, and the lack of any human travel or habitation in the Sinai at the alleged time of the Exodus, much less the millions of people and animals described in the Bible. In addition, there are demonstrable anachronisms in place names in the story, the fact that the Isralite culture hadn’t even arisen in Canaan yet, etc. These things are not just abasence of evidence, but genuin evidence of absence.
Why don’t you bring us that powerful evidence that it did happen.
You have some of your facts wrong, and others are simply irrelevant. Who told you that only Egyptians made bricks with straw or that the Habiru built Pi Rameses (there is a record of sme Habiru being paid with grain to transport stone there, but nothing saying the built it, and they weren’t slaves)? Archaeology does not say anything about how Habiru made bricks. Where are you getting this stuff?
The Bible uses Egyptian names? So what? Egypt was the dominant power of the region, and in fact occupied Canaan during the time of the alleged Exodus. Canaan was part of Egypt at the time.
The Bible says the Israelites built Pi Rameses by the way.
Now then, can you show any evidence that the Israelites (who were NOT the Habiru) were enskaved in Egypt for 400 years, then escaped en masse across the Sinai back to Canaan (which I repeat was still occupied by Egypt at the time)?
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Marley: Tell me one false national, commemorated event. Is fairies a national event? Is a legend about a Knight who killed a dragon in some distant land a national event? Is Fantastic Four a national event. Pick the best one. Pick one false national event, and we will compare the facts one on one.
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Diogenes: We have no way of knowing that the Habiru were not Israelites. The Jews in Egypt were not known, neccesarily, as “Israelites.” They were slaves.
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Diogenes: You claim that the Jews were in Kadesh for 38 years. Can you please cite the verse.
Bpelta: I don’t care how many Azteks existed at the end of their society. What is relevant is how many people DID THE AZTEKS BELIEVE saw the false myth. Furthermore, how can we be sure that the Azteks believed it. Maybe it was like the American Santa Myth which no one really believed. Finnaly, did they believe that those who saw the myths commemorated those events?
Several were posted already. The most on-point was probably the one about George Washington and the cherry tree. It’s enough to show that “national event” is a fancy term for “folk myth.” The distinction you are making between legends and single events is fictional. There’s no reason to draw an imaginary line between them for our purposes.
Prove that the commemorations were instituted at the time the events “happened” and weren’t something that evolved and later given a new origin explanation. Oh, wait, you can’t. How rude of me to ask.
abele derer, you’re playing a tricky sophistry of a game. What you’ve done is to define things so narrowly that only a monotheistic religion with books can possibly have its supernatural occurrences qualify. Other religious traditions may not have holy books, and other recorded historical events have no supernatural elements to them. There’s no particular reason why widespread belief in fairies should be less significant than widespread belief in the parting of the Red Sea: your distinction (the former was observed by scattered people, while the latter was observed by a group of people standing near one another) is wholly irrelevant.
But by insisting that it’s an important distinction, you can narrow the field enough that the only other entries are from Christianity (loaves and fishes, anyone?) and Islam. And you’re ignoring those counterexamples.
Yes we do. We know from multiple sources in muliple places and times that the Habiru were a social class, not an ethnic group.
There is no physical evidence for any Israelites in Egypt, regardless of what the Egyptians called them (and the Egyptians called them Shashu later, by the way).
It’s inferred from Deuteronomy 1:2,3, and 2:14.
Like I said, according to the myth, the tribe itself supposedly saw the omens and the tribe was comprised of thousands of people when they supposedly saw the omens (who said anything about the end of their society?). The myth was commemmorated with the building of a city and we have multiple manuscripts which record this event as history.
(Inscription on the Arco di Costantino, Arch of Constantine, in Rome)
Following your requirements for Proof from Mass Revelation, I’d suggest as witnesses the Roman emperor Constantine and his whole army, who, according to Eusebius (bishop of Caesarea), knew - thanks to instinctu divinitatis (see above) - that they’d win the battle against Maxentius, because they saw at midday the sign of the cross in the sky, shaped by light, and the words: in hoc signo vinces or En touto nika Eν τούτω νίκα.
We know this to be true, because Eusebius wrote it down in De vita Constantini and thousands of people were able to verify his report because they were there. Constantine himself confirmed the truth of the miracle and he built an Arch to notify everyone that he had won thanks to God’s support; we also have further works by Christian authors that state that this miracle did indeed happen – just like many others; and finally, there is no doubt that this event was believed to be true by generations and generations of Christians.
So, can I conclude that you agree that this history shaping event did indeed happen this way?
- Diogenes: According to the Stone Chumash to Numbers 33:36, they were at Kadesh for only a few months (“they arrived in the fourteeth year”). There were two places which were named Kadesh, which may have confused the archeologists.
- Bpelta: How do you know that there were 10,000 at the time of the myth, which may have happened, according to the azteks, three thousand years prior to when your guesstimates suggest there were 10,000 azteks. Also, were the events commemorated believed to have been commemorated by THE SAME PEOPLE WHO SAW THE MIRACLES, BINDING FOREVER.
- Wintertime: I said hallucination proof history, not people who are fighting thier brains off and, while staring at the sun, think they saw it to be in the shape of a cross.
- If fairies are believed by scattered people, it seems much easier to be able to lie about it. Every individual lies, claiming that HE saw a fairy. Are you suggesting that millions of Jews lied to their chilrdren, in unison? Also, how many people, do your books claim, saw fairies?
I didn’t say there were ten thousand, I said that was one estimate (you keep attributing things to me that I’m not writing…). At the time of the myth, as I responded, they were known as a strong military tribal power in the region. Hence, thousands. Yes, commemmorated by the same people, the people who built the city.
Some guys here wonder why the Jews were so sinful, if they saw miracles. Notably, the prophets NEVER, not once, accuse the Jews of not believing in the sinai miracles, despite the fact that they badger them for EVERY OTHER SIN.
Diogenes: One more archeological fact: The price recorded for the sale of Joseph fits what the cost of a slave was at that time, but not at any other subsequent time. If the Jews knew enough about their history to know the price of Joseph, how can you claim that they, and only they, messed up, shockingly, their own national, heavily commemorated history?
Please cite where it says that those who saw the miraces built the city for the sake of commemorating the miracles they saw. Furthermore, 10,000 isn’t 2,000,000. But you can’t even show me that they believed there were even 10,000 there. The military of that time is not the same as 3,000 years prior, when the miracles “happened.”
Why are they lying, and how are multiple cultures coming up with the same lie? And anyway, being wrong is not the same as lying.
You just suggested thousands or millions of people from many cultures lied in unison. Why is that less improbable?
It’s good enough for what’s being discussed here. A nation is a nation, isn’t it?
This nonsense is a textbook example of Begging the question.If you are trying to prove the truth of Bible stories, you cannot use “it says so in the Bible” as part of your argument.
ETA:
“The Bible is true.”
“How do you know that?”
“The events in the Bible were witnessed by too many people to be dismissed as hallucinations or fables.”
“How do you know there were these events and that there were crowds that witnessed them?”
“It says so in the Bible.”