Important to Me: Kuzari Principle, or Proof From Mass Revelation

[Bpelta]

@abele_derer

Please cite where it says that those who saw the miraces built the city for the sake of commemorating the miracles they saw. Furthermore, 10,000 isn’t 2,000,000. But you can’t even show me that they believed there were even 10,000 there. The military of that time is not the same as 3,000 years prior, when the miracles “happened.”

I’ve already cited mekorot. Here’s another one. And what do you mean, “furthermore?” Sounds like you’re just assuming there aren’t proper sources.

I keep repeating myself: during the exile, when they were wandering, when they saw the miracles…there were thousands!

[Bpelta]

Furthermore, 10,000 isn’t 2,000,000.

Oh, I see. You want 2,000,000 and only that will convince you. OK. This was an interesting conversation.

[Voyager]

@abele_derer

Some guys here wonder why the Jews were so sinful, if they saw miracles. Notably, the prophets NEVER, not once, accuse the Jews of not believing in the sinai miracles, despite the fact that they badger them for EVERY OTHER SIN.

Their actions immediately after the crossing were certainly not those of a people who had just been saved by a set of miracles. We can’t tell if they believed it or not, but they acted as if they hadn’t.

The story makes a lot more sense in the context of priests writing to chastise a population for disobeying.

[Diogenes_the_Cynic]

@abele_derer

1. Diogenes: According to the Stone Chumash to Numbers 33:36, they were at Kadesh for only a few months (“they arrived in the fourteeth year”). There were two places which were named Kadesh, which may have confused the archeologists.

Numbers doesn’t say that. I don’t know what manuscript copy the Stone edition of the Chumash is based on, but Numbers 33:36 does not say “in the 14th year.” Deuteronomy clearly says they camped at Kadesh-Barnea for 38 years and there are not two Kadeshes. This 38 year history is not some kind of skeptical interpretation, it’s accepted at face value in both Jewish and Christian traditions. If you don’t believe me, ask a rabbi.

If fairies are believed by scattered people, it seems much easier to be able to lie about it. Every individual lies, claiming that HE saw a fairy. Are you suggesting that millions of Jews lied to their chilrdren, in unison? Also, how many people, do your books claim, saw fairies?

Prove that millions of people ever claimed to have seen a miracle at Sinai. There is no evidence such a story existed before the 8th Century BCE (at the very earliest, it’s more likely post-exilic).

[Diogenes_the_Cynic]

@abele_derer

SDiogenes: One more archeological fact: The price recorded for the sale of Joseph fits what the cost of a slave was at that time, but not at any other subsequent time.

Could you please refer me to a source for whatever this is you’re referring to? Genesis 37:28 says Joseph was sold for 20 pieces of silver. Please provide the a date (supported by evidence) for this purported sale of Joseph along with the archaeological evidence that 20 pieces of silver was “the price” for slave at that time, but never at any subsequent time.

[Paranoid_Randroid]

@Diogenes_the_Cynic

Numbers doesn’t say that. I don’t know what manuscript copy the Stone edition of the Chumash is based on, but Numbers 33:36 does not say “in the 14th year.”

My ignorance on matters of biblical scholarship is pretty extreme, but this made me curious enough to comb through a Jewish translation of Numbers (provided by Mechon Mamre). Could he be referring to Numbers 33:38? After a lengthy series of places at which the Isrealites encamped, of which Kadesh was the next-to-last, and then Mt. Hor, and then:

@Numbers 33:38

And Aaron the priest went up into mount Hor at the commandment of the LORD, and died there, in the fortieth year after the children of Israel were come out of the land of Egypt, in the fifth month, on the first day of the month.

@Diogenes the Cynic

Deuteronomy clearly says they camped at Kadesh-Barnea for 38 years and there are not two Kadeshes

Indeed:

@Deuteronomy 2:14

And the days in which we came from Kadesh-barnea, until we were come over the brook Zered, were thirty and eight years; until all the generation, even the men of war, were consumed from the midst of the camp, as the LORD swore unto them.

Is the contention that Kadesh and Kadesh-barnea are separate places? This is all terribly confusing.

[Strassia]

Did he just claim that 20 pieces of silver was the price for a slave at one and only one point in history? Does he believe that slave prices are set down by some sort of central authority that records the exact price of a slave at any given time? Was it the same price for any slave, or are there yearly tables released by the Egyptian Central Slave Authority with the prices based on Age/Size/Sex?

[Shot_From_Guns]

Well, you know, you just go into eBay and set it to only search for completed listings. You may have to register, though–I think it only lets you do that if you have an account.

[Miller]

@Shot_From_Guns

Well, you know, you just go into eBay and set it to only search for completed listings. You may have to register, though–I think it only lets you do that if you have an account.

Don’t be an idiot. They didn’t have the internet back then, let alone Ebay.

They used Blue Book instead.

[Revenant_Threshold]

@abele_derer

I think War of the Worlds actually verifies my point. They believed the story, because it was describing events that they didn’t see (it was describing events that happened in other cities, if memory serves). If War of the Worlds would have claimed, however, “THERE IS AN ALIEN ON EVERY CITY BLOCK IN THE UNITED STATES,” they would have lauged at it.

Ah; to the contrary, in fact, you’ve provided evidence against your point by making this argument. My claim was not that the *fictional invasion *was the mass believed event, but that the *mass panic in response *was the mass believed event. Which did describe events that they saw (or, at least, should have seen); the claims of millions of people taken in by this would be something that people would see, simply by knowing other people who were apparently in a state of panic.

Having been presented with the idea that millions were in a state of panic over the broadcast - and through living their lives interacted with people who were manifestly not in a state of panic - they did not laugh at the original claims. Still, today, people believe it. It’s a widely accepted urban legend. I think it fulfils your criteria.

[abele_derer]

1. How do you know that people believe that EVERY American was panicked; also how could they verify the level of panic that existed in other cities? Furthermore, some people were panicked. So, if anything, you are saying that a true event can be EXAGGERATED. Do you therefore claim that some people ate manna, and that some people walked through a split sea?
2. Diogenes: My reference to the stone chumash was that the Jewish tradition was that they were in Kadesh only for a few months. Either way, do you really believe that they sifted all the sand of desert for a hundred feet deep – something which would bankrupt Saudi Arabia? (They probably sent one shaft down, and said, “OK, nothing here.”
3. Bpelta. You are missing the point entirely. The burden, let’s not forget IS SOLELY ON YOU. I am providing evidence, and you are claiming that my evidence is SURELY fallible. All you can show is 1/200 of the number of people. More importantly, you haven’t EVEN SHOWN THAT. You have never shown me that the Azteks believed that 10,000 of their ancient ancestors experienced miracles. All you showed me was that, relatively recently, there were 10,000 Azteks. Even more important than that is that, and you could not have missed this point, is that I am talking about heavily-commemoarated history by the same people who were believed to have seen the miracles. Is this all you got to meet YOUR BURDEN OF PROVING TO ME THAT MY EVIDENCE IS FALLIBLE?

[Diogenes_the_Cynic]

@abele_derer

Diogenes: My reference to the stone chumash was that the Jewish tradition was that they were in Kadesh only for a few months.

I don’t know what the hell you’re talking about. The Chumash is the Torah, and you cited a verse from Numbers. What “tradition” are you referring to? Link please, and also how about an explanation for why the Torah contradicts this tradition and for why the verse you quoted does not contain the words you said it contains.

Either way, do you really believe that they sifted all the sand of desert for a hundred feet deep – something which would bankrupt Saudi Arabia? (They probably sent one shaft down, and said, “OK, nothing here.”

You have no idea how arhaeological surveys are done, do you (ever heard of satellite imaging)?

They’ve been trying (and trying HARD) for over 100 years to find the Israelites in the Sinai, and they search at all the sites the Bible said they stopped at – in particular, Kadesh-barnea, where the Bible says they lived for 38 years. Nothing.

The Sinai isn’t sandy, by the way. It’s rocky, which means it holds archaeological imprints very well. No shifting sands. Like I said, they can find 3000 year old Bedouin campfires and tentpole holes from very small groups, but nary a trace of two million Israelites.

[Revenant_Threshold]

@abele_derer

1. How do you know that people believe that EVERY American was panicked;

I don’t know that, so I didn’t claim it. In fact I discarded the idea; after all, if the claim was that EVERY American was panicked, then all that would be needed to refute that would be to base it on their own experiences, rather than other people’s.

also how could they verify the level of panic that existed in other cities?

Do you know no-one in other cities? Irregardless, the claim originally was the millions were panicked, not that millions of people in New York City were panicked but everyone in Seattle got that it was false; logic dictates a fairly even split. You don’t need to know anyone outside of your own city.

Furthermore, some people were panicked. So, if anything, you are saying that a true event can be EXAGGERATED. Do you therefore claim that some people ate manna, and that some people walked through a split sea?

Why not? It’s equally refutory when we’re talking about an infallible source. If anything you could argue it’s worse, because it implies the possibility of deliberate deception on the part of exaggerators. If you want to accept the chance of exaggeration, you must then include that chance in all similar claims made by the same source.

I would note that you’ve mistakenly copied the same form of exaggeration; namely, population. But the War of the Worlds case not only meant an exaggeration of populace involved, but also the form their actions took. So a result of “thousands of people ate manna” could be de-exaggerated into “some people ate some tasty food”, which seem plausible enough to me.

[Hunter_Hawk]

@Revenant_Threshold

I don’t know that, so I didn’t claim it. In fact I discarded the idea; after all, if the claim was that EVERY American was panicked, then all that would be needed to refute that would be to base it on their own experiences, rather than other people’s.

C’mon, it’s fun to argue when you refuse to define your terms! I mean, just lookit them goalposts scurrying around!

[Bpelta]

@abele_derer

3. Bpelta. You are missing the point entirely. The burden, let’s not forget IS SOLELY ON YOU. I am providing evidence, and you are claiming that my evidence is SURELY fallible. All you can show is 1/200 of the number of people. More importantly, you haven’t EVEN SHOWN THAT. You have never shown me that the Azteks believed that 10,000 of their ancient ancestors experienced miracles. All you showed me was that, relatively recently, there were 10,000 Azteks. Even more important than that is that, and you could not have missed this point, is that I am talking about heavily-commemoarated history by the same people who were believed to have seen the miracles. Is this all you got to meet YOUR BURDEN OF PROVING TO ME THAT MY EVIDENCE IS FALLIBLE?

CAPS FOR TRUTH, eh?

Okay, one more time against my better judgment: the original sources I put up prove that they believed the tribe itself, which they believed (and were correct) was a military power, was thousands of people when they saw the miracles. The 10,000 is a guesstimate of how many there were at that time. More recently, the number was 200,000.

But yeah, the tribe wasn’t near 2,000,000 at the time, so I guess I can’t disprove it from your pov… :dubious:

[abele_derer]

This is my last post, so enjoy if for all it’s worth. I will not respond to most of the points, sorry.

1. Diogenes: 1) How do they know where Kadesh-Barnea is? 2) According to “Aley Masei,” written in Hebrew, the Jews were NEVER in Kadesh-Barnea. Instead, they were “near” Kadesh-Barnea. He says that Kadesh-Barnea was a part of Israel (which the Jews were forbidden to enter), so where the Jews camped could not have been in Kadesh-Barnea. How “near” to Kadesh-Barnea were they? The author says “I don’t know.” Apparently, you do. 3) How long were they at Kadesh-Barnea, or “near” Kadesh-Barnea? According to Rashi, they were there for nineteen years. According to Ibn Ezra, they were there for approximately two months (See Haemek Davar on Deuteronomy Chapter one).

[abele_derer]

Bpelta: How could they estimate the number of people who were there when the events took place, when the myth does not claim “WHEN” the events took place. Furthermore, like I told you before, please show me the commemorations.

[Czarcasm]

@abele_derer

Bpelta: How could they estimate the number of people who were there when the events took place, when the myth does not claim “WHEN” the events took place. Furthermore, like I told you before, please show me the commemorations.

Define “commemoration” please.

[abele_derer]

A commemoration is when someone does a certain action for the sake of remembering a certain event. They are important, since the Torah claims that they began commemorating the events in Sinai, and they were commanded to perform them “forever.”

Regarding the Exodus, the Torah mentions, according to my count, at least 23 different commemorations of the Exodus.

You have to understand the Kuzari proof. No one is claiming that national, commemorated history is an infallible form of evidence. We are simply saying that, since it has never shown itself to be fallible, we have no right to assume that it is fallible.

[Diogenes_the_Cynic]

@abele_derer

This is my last post, so enjoy if for all it’s worth. I will not respond to most of the points, sorry.

1. Diogenes: 1) How do they know where Kadesh-Barnea is? 2) According to “Aley Masei,” written in Hebrew, the Jews were NEVER in Kadesh-Barnea. Instead, they were “near” Kadesh-Barnea. He says that Kadesh-Barnea was a part of Israel (which the Jews were forbidden to enter), so where the Jews camped could not have been in Kadesh-Barnea. How “near” to Kadesh-Barnea were they? The author says “I don’t know.” Apparently, you do. 3) How long were they at Kadesh-Barnea, or “near” Kadesh-Barnea? According to Rashi, they were there for nineteen years. According to Ibn Ezra, they were there for approximately two months (See Haemek Davar on Deuteronomy Chapter one).

If you’re not going to respond, there’s no point in answering your questions. Good bye.