In defense of professional wrestling - long

The BBQ Pit
41

I used to believe it was real when I was very young. When I got older, I learned it wasn’t…but I wasn’t a huge fan anyways, so, no harm, no foul.

My big brother may have taken the news a bit harder. He ws a hard core fan, and he did eventually learn it is fake. He has been known to make fun of all wrestling fans that “think that fake crap is real”. I wonder if he, and others like him, are really projecting, here. Is it possible they are a little angry at themselves for being duped at first? And are they also angry that they are unable to still enjoy it and get caught up in the magic of in now? Maybe it makes them feel better to believe they are wise enough to know better than to be sucked into the ‘sham’. Deep inside though, they still are ashamed and angry at having had to have given up their childhood. But hey! I’m neither a fan or a psychiatrist. Clearly.

42

[QUOTE=ZipperJJ]
I don’t understand all of this outcry over the fact that pro wrestling is fake. Is the problem that it’s violent? Is the problem that people take it too seriously by discussing it?

[/QUOTE]

No.

James Gandolfini is a really exceptional actor, at least in his most famous role. Edie Falco likewise. Most of the supporting actors are also really good as actors, or at least really well-suited to their roles. The writing was always smart, clever, sometimes funny, almost always ringing true somehow even when it was “unrealistic.” The plotting was unique, unpredictable, able to provoke emotional responses by creating situations that resonate with the viewer. Direction, lighting, scenic design, music choice, even prop selection were done with such care and intelligence that each one could give you a chill.

Terry O’Quinn and Michael Emerson are exceedingly good actors; Daniel Dae Kim and Yunjin Kim are also quite good, and Josh Holloway can hit it out of the park on the rare instances when they actually pitch it to him. Evangeline Lilly and Matthew Fox are both a step below this group as actors, but of course are much more skillful actors than the vast majority of the actors who work in professional wrestling. The writing on Lost is an order of magnitude weaker than the writing on The Sopranos, but one has to (well, I have to - others disagree) admire the complexity and imagination (if not always the consistency or reasonableness) of the plot.

No. If you want to compare them as fictional entertainments, the biggest difference is in the quality of the writing, acting, directing, plotting, and incidental artistic work - all of which are considerably better on even a mediocre television drama than on a WWE presentation. In these terms, watching wrestling is like watching a very, very bad television show or horrifically bad action movie.

The problem is that wrestling is not the same as most fictional entertainment. It is not like TV or movies, because it places no value on acting quality or artistic elements and makes no effort to generate emotional response in the viewer. It is not like sports or game shows, where the outcome is uncertain and the viewer can imagine him- or herself in the place of the person on the field / in the game, and compare the decisions made with the decisions the viewer “would have made.” It’s not like documentary television, where authenticity is prized.

It is utterly unique. It’s value lies in the ability to stimulate a visceral response in some viewers. It doesn’t do it for me, but that’s OK - I have no problem with the fact that it does do it for some others. The problem is that by comparing it to other forms of entertainment, you’re setting it up to fail; wrestling can’t compete with Lost on *Lost’*s terms, or with the Super Bowl on the Super Bowl’s terms, because they’re fundamentally different things.

43

[QUOTE=Jodi]
The difference is that in pro wrestling every fan (so far as I, a non-watcher, can tell) buys into that illusion. That’s part of the fun, I gather.
[/QUOTE]

OK. I don’t quite agree, but I see where you’re coming from.

[QUOTE=ZipperJJ]
Pro wrestling is fake. It is violent. People discuss the characters and plots after the show…outcry?
[/QUOTE]

I think it’s at least in part because the fan base of pro-wrestling is perceived to be lower-class, uneducated types. It’s easy shorthand for bashing on “rednecks” or “trailer trash”. NASCAR gets similar treatment, in my experience.

44

They do run disclaimers before and during shows - not because someone might think it is real, but because people know it is ‘not real’ and try some of the things themselves. Owen Hart severely injured Steve Austin’s neck with a botched pile driver. D-Lo Brown permanently crippled Droz when he slipped on a power bomb. These people knew what they were doing, practiced what they were doing, and did it nightly. Unfortunately, too many kids and young adults watch something and then think they can do it just as well (something I hear constantly from my son and daughter). Still, search “backyard wrestling” on YouTube, and I’m sure you’ll find plenty of untrained idiots doing their best to cripple themselves.

45

See, I think the point of my OP was that I didn’t even realize that fans actually knew is was fake. I seriously thought you all thought it was real.

Now that I see you know it’s fake I’m still perplexed as to why you would knowingly suspend your disbelief to participate in the fantasy. Again, to me, it’s a bunch of complete morons in speedos pretending to compete in a “sport.”

My jaw hangs in utter disbelief when I flip (albeit briefly) to any wresting performance. If it was a two hour movie, with credits, and actors names, and key grips, and some semblance of a script I could cut it some slack. But it seems to take itself seriously, and until now, I assumed the fans did too.

Look, I really dislike rap music, but I would never think of writing a “you rap music fans sure are stupid” thread, because I can genuinely appreciate my tastes are not omnipotent, and that music is a very personal appreciation. After all some of the previous generation to me thought Elvis was some sort of demonic anti-Christ.

So, I apologize for assuming that fans thought wrestling was real - shows how much I know (or care for that matter) about it. But I stand by my assertion that it sure is a dumb form of entertainment.

46

[QUOTE=Hampshire]
It’s really simple and I don’t even see the debate here.
Professional wrestling is a live scripted drama that mixes theatrical acting (good or bad acting is subjective but it’s the reaction of the audience that counts right?) and choreographed physical stuntwork.
If that’s your cup o tea or not well more power to ya. Sure the fans get carried away sometimes but they know it’s not real. And it’s absurd to question their IQ because they like it.
It’s as if you’d go to see The Godfather in a packed theatre and when the audience is stunned when Sonny kills Fredo you’d stand up and declare “You stupid fools, it’s fake, he’s not really dead, if you believe that I question your IQs.”
[/QUOTE]

I completely agree here. If someone did think that it was real (shit, either wrestling or the godfather) THEN I would question their intelligence.

As for wrestling, I’ve had times in my life where I thought it was entertaining. This is not one of those times. I’ve never able to stick with it - I find it hamfisted, poorly acted, and overexaggerated. Perhaps poorly acted is unfair, since they are supposed to be acting as super-macho (I’m not even sure what term I should use here…). It’s just currently not my cup of coffee, but so what? Some people enjoy it and I don’t find anything inherently wrong with that.

47

I think a big part of the problem is that pro wrestling calls itself wrestling, when there’s already an actual, non-fake sport by that name.

48

[QUOTE=Leaffan]
See, I think the point of my OP was that I didn’t even realize that fans actually knew is was fake. I seriously thought you all thought it was real.
[/QUOTE]

No fans over the age of about 10 seriously think it’s unscripted. I won’t even say “fake”, because “predetermined outcome” and “fake” aren’t the same thing at all. Someone earlier mentioned ballet as a comparison, which I think is actually a really valid comparison. Everyone knows (or has a solid guess) about how even an unfamiliar ballet will generally go. You go to watch the artistry in action, not to be surprised by the outcome.

[QUOTE=Leaffan]
Now that I see you know it’s fake I’m still perplexed as to why you would knowingly suspend your disbelief to participate in the fantasy. Again, to me, it’s a bunch of complete morons in speedos pretending to compete in a “sport.”
[/QUOTE]

What? You don’t like movies? Not a big fan of television? Don’t follow opera or ballet? Not a big fiction reader? The vast majority of entertainment available is essentially based in fiction.

What really galls me here is that you freely admit you know not a damn thing about it, but you’re totally willing to dismiss the whole thing as “a bunch of complete morons in speedos pretending to compete”. There’s no pretend there, mister. Those guys are competing - with each other, for the chance to move up in their industry. Advancement is tied to a lot of things - just like advancement in any other industry. How much fan reaction do they generate? Are they proficient public speakers? How’s their in-ring technique? How athletic are they? Have they mastered the sport of wrestling that forms the basis of the scripted matches? They are most definitely competing with each other. The disconnect is in that the winner and loser of the competition isn’t necessarily tied to who the winner and loser of *individual matches * is. The outcome of any given match isn’t how they’re gauging who wins the competition.

Neither are they morons. Like any other group of professionals, some are brighter than others - but even the dimmer bulbs are easily as clever as your average professional baseball player or football player or hockey player. I don’t know any of them personally, but keep in mind that at least one former professional wrestler is a stock market analyst successful enough he’s a regular panelist on CNBC and Fox News financial segments. At least two former professional wrestlers are authors with best-seller credits - neither one with best-seller credits that are exclusively about wrestling.

[QUOTE=Leaffan]
My jaw hangs in utter disbelief when I flip (albeit briefly) to any wresting performance. If it was a two hour movie, with credits, and actors names, and key grips, and some semblance of a script I could cut it some slack. But it seems to take itself seriously, and until now, I assumed the fans did too.
[/QUOTE]

Of course it seems to take itself seriously! That’s part of the scripting. Just because professional wrestling makes it a point to keep the scripting and technical people in the background doesn’t make it any less choreographed. As for credits and actors’ names - you’ve noticed that a fair proportion of those guys don’t use the name their mama gave them, surely? Nobody’s mother names her baby boy “Triple H” or “The Great Khali”.

Half the fun of watching wrestling is trying to guess at the storylines or critiquing them as they play out! Granted, some of the storylines are well and truly ridiculously asinine, but not all of them are. Some of them are logical, well-thought-out and well-played-out.

[QUOTE=Leaffan]
Look, I really dislike rap music, but I would never think of writing a “you rap music fans sure are stupid” thread, because I can genuinely appreciate my tastes are not omnipotent, and that music is a very personal appreciation. After all some of the previous generation to me thought Elvis was some sort of demonic anti-Christ.

So, I apologize for assuming that fans thought wrestling was real - shows how much I know (or care for that matter) about it. But I stand by my assertion that it sure is a dumb form of entertainment.
[/QUOTE]

I don’t think that’s you actually do appreciate that your tastes are not omnipotent. You’ve surely given precious little reason for me to think that in this thread. What it is is a form of entertainment that you, personally, don’t find entertaining. Fine. You don’t have to like all forms of entertainment - nobody’s holding a gun to your head, son. But you’ve clearly decided that everyone who does appreciate the forms you don’t like is an idiot.

I don’t enjoy hockey, but you don’t see me lecturing on how dumb I find it and how stupid its fans must be, do you?

49

[QUOTE=Aangelica]
I don’t enjoy hockey, but you don’t see me lecturing on how dumb I find it and how stupid its fans must be, do you?
[/QUOTE]

Well, that’s because you’re not a smarmy condescending fucknugget.

50

[QUOTE=Leaffan]
See, I think the point of my OP was that I didn’t even realize that fans actually knew is was fake. I seriously thought you all thought it was real.
[/quote]
Well, Leaffan, if you were ignorant enough to believe that, maybe you should take a few steps back and figure out what else you don’t know before presenting a woefully unprepared opinion…

…like that. No one takes wrestling seriously. That is, the conflicts, the drama, all that- no one takes it seriously. Not the fans, not the performers, not Vince McFuckingmahon. They’re playing characters. No one. No. One. Repeat after me- no one. They call it sports entertainment. “Sport” is a mere adjective. They’re selling entertainment. Cheesy, over-the-top, ridiculous entertainment.

This is the first of this we’ve heard. If you don’t like wrestling, fine, but it’s common courtesy to not act like a big fat pompous dick while simultaneously demonstrating an astonishing amount of ignorance about the topic at hand.

51

I think there’s some equivocation going on. Part of it isn’t real in the sense of a sporting event whose outcome is uncertain (though often probable). But part of it is very real. I don’t know whether pro wrestling is a sport, but I do know that pro wrestlers are athletes. The argument that they couldn’t make it in some other sport is misplaced. Even Michael Jordan, whom I sure everyone will agree was an athlete playing in a sport, couldn’t make it in baseball. So, pro wrestling is choreographed (to a degree), but a person who doesn’t know what he’s doing — a hockey or football star, for example — stands to be seriously injured if he engages in it. I think “fake” is the wrong word. I think “enhanced” is better.

52

Liberal, would you refer to ballet dancers, acrobats, or movie stuntmen as “athletes”?

53

[QUOTE=Thudlow Boink]
Liberal, would you refer to ballet dancers, acrobats, or movie stuntmen as “athletes”?
[/QUOTE]

… You wouldn’t?

54

…

55

Definitely!

a person trained or gifted in exercises or contests involving physical agility, stamina, or strength— Dictionary.com Unabridged (v 1.1)

56

“Fake” doesn’t quite make it as a descriptive term here.

“Embarassingly moronic” is much closer to the mark.

57

Hold on a minute! You guys are missing the most important part of the OP:

[QUOTE=Really Not All That Bright]
IWrestling can be enjoyed the same way- lots of yelling and cool entrances for the kids; lots of tits for the males aged 21-34;
[/QUOTE]

YOU MEAN I ONLY HAVE SEVEN YEARS LEFT TO ENJOY TITS!?!?!?!?

goes out to make the most of his waining youth

58

One of my favorite Simpsons exchanges:

Bart: [in the Simpsons’ living room, watching a wrestling match]
If you ask me, this is going to be one helluva match.
Lisa: Oh, Bart, I hope you’re not taking this seriously.
Even a 5-year-old knows that this is as choreographed as any ballet!
Homer: [in Moe’s tavern]
Eh, Rasputin’s got the reach, but on the other hand,
the Professor’s got his patented coma lock.
If you ask me, this is going to be one helluva match.

59

[QUOTE=Eonwe]
YOU MEAN I ONLY HAVE SEVEN YEARS LEFT TO ENJOY TITS!?!?!?!?
[/QUOTE]
Actually… yes.

60

Professional wrestling and TV dramas are both fake, but they aren’t fake in the same way.

Like somebody said in the other thread, when Bruce Willis dies, nobody is going to say that he was a police officer. Nobody says that Tom Hanks is a mentally retarded multi-millionaire Vietnam veteran or astronaut. Because these people are actors in the same way that Benoit was an actor.

Personally, I don’t care for a faux sport that is presented as reality. If you enjoy pro wrestling, that’s fine with me. But there’s nothing inconsistent about disliking pro wrestling because it’s fake while enjoying other entertainment that is fictional.