In praise of Amsterdam’s prostitutes

Great Debates
1

Before anyone asks: no, I didn’t personally employ their services :).

I awake on Saturday morning, my birthday, knowing that my lovely wife had booked us a mystery weekend somewhere (my guess being Pembrokeshire or the Brecon Beacons). Just past Barry, when it becomes clear that we’re on our way to Cardiff airport, she hands me a gift. Unwrapped, it is Lonely Planet: Amsterdam. Hurrah!

What a magnificent, inspiring city. (Full of scousers, strangely: it was like Butlins Pwllelli). Even without the ultra-civilised liberal institutions (that’s “liberal” in a European sense, not the absurdly counter-intuitive US term) it is one of the jewels of Europe, architecturally, culturally and…erm…canally.

But back to those institutions. After the wife and I had wandered the medieval Centrum in the sunshine whilst pleasantly bollocksed on skunk, we sauntered through the Red (more accurately “UV ”) Light District. Quite and eye opener, in many ways.

The prostitutes hire a “window” and charge around $60 for a 15-minute appointment (which is taxed). The client must wash thoroughly and wear a condom, and any hint of aggressive or unreasonable behaviour on his part will warrant the pressing of a button which summons police/security. It appears to be almost as safe and hygienic a workplace as any other, which perhaps explains why there are so few illegal prostitutes in Amsterdam (less than 5%).

As for the mental and psychological health of the women, this did not IMO appear too much cause for concern either. There seemed to be a strong camaraderie and extensive support structure amongst the women, who would continually chat to each other between clients like any other work colleague. They are also apparently regularly “interviewed” by well-meaning punters who “just want to talk” - these are apparently their favourite clients: $50 for a conversation with someone who cares about your well-being! (Indeed, I heard one woman gently reassuring a client, as she smilingly but firmly shepherded him out the door, that she had “no problem with the work”.)

These are young, attractive and by all accounts extremely “sorted” women who could take all kinds of alternative employment opportunities in the city but who, for some reason, prefer to have hygienic and safe sex with strangers for lots of money. Doubtless, one might uncover dark and tragic stories in their past lives which might have influenced their career decision. But compared to the illegal workers and their regular rapes, diseases, violent assaults, arrests, oppressive pimping and utter lack of any kind of support structure, these women truly live in civilisation.

I would strongly advise everyone to visit Amsterdam once in their lives, especially if one is of a more conservative outlook. I understand that there are eg. brothels elsewhere, bu nowhere else is one confronted so. Whether or not one agrees with the legalisation of drugs or prostitution, one should at least be able to accommodate it intellectually rather than seek the comfort of denial. Humans are sexual beings. Plants which affect a sense of well-being when eaten grow from the very ground. These are facts to be dealt with.

2

Well, did you here the one about the evangelical minister who just wanted to talk? Twenty-eight minutes into his actionless half-hour apointment he says, “Well, hon, if I can’t convince you to give your heart to Jesus, hell–time for a quickie!”

Bah-dum-dum!

Sounds great! You can also smoke ganja there, I hear. It’s about time the United States of Panties-in-a-Twist goddamn grew up and started accepting human nature for what it is, instead of trying to control it.

Ain’t gonna happen soon, though.

3

Masterful as always, Sentient, but you lost me here. Care to expand?

(And yes I still believe that dinosaurs blah humans…strata blah…horses…those thingmies that look like shellfish but snuffed it aeons (aea??) ago…)

4

When I said that my wife and I wandered around medieval Amsterdam “pleasantly bollocksed on skunk”, I was referring to the fact that someone had grown some cannabis plants, scraped off the resin and put them in a cake for us to eat.

Whoa, indeed.

5

You must understand, Sentient, that I ahev lived a very sheltered existence.

6

With nary a keyboard to play with…

7

It’s not clear where I stand on this issue. Of course, if women want to become prostitutes, I think it should be legal and safe.

On the other hand, I just can’t “digest” the concept that this is “just another job”, like being a teacher or a grocer. (Not that you said that, SentientMeat). The reason is that, if I have a daughter, I wouldn’t have a problem with her becoming anyting she wanted, except a prostitute.

In that sense, even if I “accommodate it intellectually” to a certain, I still can’t think of it as “just another job”. And it would be hard for me to praise their working conditions if I would never want any of my female relatives to work there.

Anyway, my question for you SentientMeat is, if you had a daughter that chose to become a prostitute in Amsterdam, would you still cheerily praise the “safe and hygienic workplace”, and the “strong camaraderie and extensive support structure” that they enjoy?

I’m not attacking your position, I’m just curious as to whether you have intellectually accommodated prostitution to such a degree that you wouldn’t mind a female relative practicing it.

8

Very good question, Polerius. And you’re right, I don’t quite think it’s “just another job”, but I think it should be just like other jobs in terms of its working practices.

I suppose that I would have some reservations about prostitution as a career choice for someone close to me (female or not), but the same can be said about all kinds of employment, from soldier to professional boxer to travelling sales rep to rainforest logger or the like. These functions might be well paid and societally necessary in some way, but I would advise that person to take into consideration all of the factors which might preclude the stable, happy life which I hope they could see me leading.

Ultimately, if my supposed daughter could convince me that she thought knew what she was doing (even if I didn’t), I would have to accept it just as if she had enrolled in the Marines.

9

Oh I don’t know about that. I can image a few worse scenarios; becoming a Social Democrat, a fashion model, a Britney Spears fan, etc. – and I’ll take an honest whore over a fat labour unionist any day of the week (except 1st of may).

Anyway…

If whores should be legalized I suppose they should pay tax as well?

10

I certainly agree that if people are to be prostitutes, then it should be under the circumstances you speak of. I’m just a bit iffy on the “if” condition. I have seen plenty of evidence that most prostitutes do, in fact, carry a lot of past baggage like abuse/rape/drugs/whatever and very little that they don’t. Trying to solve those problems should therefore be of high priority.

The “would you like your daughter to…” question is, in my opinion, supremely uninteresting. I wouldn’t like my daughter to be a soldier, meter-maid or cleaning lady either, but I don’t advocate banning those occupations. A much more interesting question is whether prostitution should be treated like any other job in the sense that if you’re on unemployment benefits, should you be forced to either take a job as a prostitute or lose your benefits?

11

Sorry that our country doesn’t accomadate your whoring and drugging to your satisfaction.

My theoretical daughter would never be able to convince me and any attempt to do so would likely result in her enrollment in the Marines. I would like to think that she would have some skills besides sucking cock.

12

I can only assume you don’t have a daughter.

13

I never proposed banning prostitution. In fact, I said the same thing you said “if women want to become prostitutes, I think it should be legal and safe.”

Anyway, even though you don’t want your daughter to be a soldier, a meter-maid of a cleaning lady, there is something different about prostitution isn’t there?

If someone’s wife became a soldier, a meter maid or a cleaning lady, I’m sure some men would mind, but wouldn’t have a hard time staying married to them.

On the other hand, if someone’s wife became a prostitute, I’m pretty sure most men would have a VERY hard time staying married to them, no matter how much they support women’s rights to be prostitutes .

14

Those in Amsterdam are, at a ‘business rate’ I believe - anyone know more about this? Coldfire?

I considered making reference to a tax-free deposit, but that gag would be in poor taste.

And Priceguy’s point is well made. The tragic episodes of many of their lives represent problems which should be addressed in any way feasibly possible. (But this would be true even if those people didn’t become prostitutes. And there are a heck of a lot more of them.)

15

I wonder if that’s a legend (the “most” part) because I’ve often heard it but never actually seen a formalised study that attempted to prove it. But even so that would be no reason to outlaw it. You would simply further condemn and marginalise a group of people who apparently have few other options.

Prostitution is legal in Denmark, some feminists wants it banned on the grounds it’s demeaning and harmful to all women or women-kind.

16

It does accomodate my drugging: my tipple is liquor, son.

As for whores, no thanks! I’d rather disinfect myself with a good single malt than catch cooties for the same price.

How do you know that’s one of her skills?

But I agree. Whores are grody, and I would not want my daugher to participate in such grodiness. It ain’t virtuous. But someone else’s daughter? Hell yeah! Just let me have her at a discount before someone gives 'er cooties.

17

I don’t think parents can enforce enrollment any more, can they? (Incidentally, would it be OK if she did develop other skills while doing so? It would seem an ideal way to fund herself through university :))

Of course, one of the factors which might well preclude the life I live myself is the difficulty with separating ‘genuine’ physical intimacy from ‘business’. I would agree that few other jobs present such enormous difficulties in terms of precluding marriage and family.

However, not everyone wants either of these and, again, any job requiring long absence or actions one’s spouse “wouldn’t want to see” might well preclude them also.

18

I used to agree completely with the sentiments expressed in the OP. UNTIL - I read about the prohibition on buying sex services in Sweden, and its apparent huge success.

In Sweden they made it illegal for men to visit prostitutes. The women are completely in the clear. A brilliant innovation, compared to earlier approaches throughout history.

Feminist argument in support of the law

This link repeats the assertion that the law has led to a great reduction in crime.

(Bolding mine)

I wish I had a stronger cite for this result. For all I know, it could be urban legend. A Resource Book for working against Trafficking in Women and Girls (PDF document), page 43 and further, does not seem to mention such a positive consequence of the law.

Plus of course, if it merely moves the problem elsewhere, then the laws need to be enacted more widely, too.

My point is, that if an enlightened and intelligent prohibition on prostitution can contribute to the fight against the horrible international crime of forced prostitution, trafficking, sex tourism, etc. (e.g. by reducing demand for sex services and thus making supply of them less lucrative, or whatever other reason) then I’m in favor of such a prohibition.

19

Nice article from around the time the law was passed

20

I think that’s rather a different argument, FM. You are considering the best way to tackle the crimes of sex slavery and underaged prostitution. These are crimes even in Amsterdam.

The feminist argument, perhaps by definition, draws an arbitrary line between the sexes as justification for one law for one and another for another. (Where does the poor homosexual male prostitute sit in all this, exactly?) One could just as easily suggest that any transaction between rich and poor (or ‘worker’ and ‘borgeoise’ if you prefer) is unequal.

I would suggest that the system in Amsterdam prevents those crimes, just as dodgy moonshine trafficking was prevented by repealing prohibition. However, the debate about crime prevention (and those things you mention are crimes even there) is something of a red herring here, I feel.