Essentially, yes.
Doing things without asking or caring about your partner’s opinion is generally known as “rape”, yes? That’s a problem I don’t think is well combated by requiring prostitution to stay in the dark, far away from any meaningful legal protection, which is the system we’ve got in most of the world, certainly including Sweden. Just because it’s technically legal to be a prostitute doesn’t mean that you can do your business in the (metaphorical) light of day.
Yes. By “partner”, I meant the prostitute. Even if you can’t go the full whips-and-chains-and-soldering-irons route in Amsterdam, given the system SentientMeat describes, you can do many things.
Yes, I gathered as much :).
And it is presumably illegal to do these vague “many things”, even in Amsterdam. I don’t see how outlawing consensual prostituition does anything to solve the problem.
Not an urban legend. Not as common as the stories might make you believe, but then neither are quintuplets. I’ve taken classes with two dancers that I know of, one a nursing student, the other a CS major who also worked in the school computer lab with me. Both bright kids, both stripping for the money to pay for school, neither one a figment of my imagination or FOAFs. :shrug: Sure it’s anecdotal, but your wanting to believe it’s an urban legend doesn’t make it one.
And yet, I’ve never encountered a university that didn’t have a bank nearby.
Well, no shit. Just because some dancers are smart, educated, and motivated doesn’t mean that all of them are. Of course they’re in the minority.
And besides, you were hardly paying for an intellectual conversation while you were getting your pole waxed, were you? Even if the gal rubbing up on Little msmith537 was capable of discussing the classics, it sure wasn’t going to be with you. You were there for her body, not her mind.
I don’t really have a stake in it one way or the other but let me put it this way - imagine the most obnoxious, repugnant man you can think of. Now imagine your daughter/mom/sister/ son, whoever, licking his balls for $50 (most Johns don’t look like Richard Geer as most prostitutes don’t look like Julia Roberts).
or how would you feel about this after-work conversation:
“Hi honey, I’m home!”
“How was work?”
“Busy…I had to suck about 12 cocks, jerk off another half dozen dudes at this bachelor party get take it up the ass twice…hey kids!! come over and give mommy a kiss!”
Intellectually, I suppose it shouldn’t be any different than any other crappy job. I still wouldn’t date one nor want my daughter to become one and I can’t imagine what would change my mind.
How dare you presume to know why I happen to be in a strip club. Besides, there’s usually no touching.
I´m not the poster you´re addressing, but here is my take on it: Where I live (Austria) prostiution is legal and I´m in favour of it, for the reasons other posters have mentioned.
Your point about unemployment benefits is very interesting, I never thought about it that way, and I agree with you to a certain extend. But then there are all kinds of very dangerous jobs that are not illegal and nobody is forced to take such a job if they are unemployed. But those jobs are usually qualified, but not all. There are people who earn a lot of money by being “guinea pigs” for medical studies. You can earn money by donating blood plasma. Should unemployed people be forced to do this?
Normally, unemployed people dont´t have the qualifications to do this, but if for some reason they have, do you think they HAVE to be boxers, stuntmen, soldiers, UFC fighters, toxic waste disposers or porn performers?
I think it is a pragmatic issue; like it or not, prostitution has been with us forever and will continue to do so; it´s IMO certainly a noble goal to try to make it go away, but that´s not realistic. So, regulations to make the workplace for prosititutes safer and trying to make them less dependant on pimps are certainly a good idea, IMHO.
msmith: Sorry that our country doesn’t accomadate your whoring and drugging to your satisfaction. […]
I’ve never had an intellectual conversation while getting a lap dance. […]
How dare you presume to know why I happen to be in a strip club. Besides, there’s usually no touching.
Glad to know our country’s at least accomodating your whoring to your satisfaction, msmith! 
Mind you, I’m not criticizing it; I just think it’s a bit funny that someone who admits to getting lap dances and watching strippers would get all moralistic on Aeschines for wanting prostitution to be legalized.
Oh I’m not being moralistic. I just thought it would be a funny comment. On the one hand, if there was a local establishment where I could get a blow job from a hot girl for about $50 (less than the cost of a dinner), it just kind of makes sense. On the other hand, I still wouldn’t want my daughter working there.
So, what, am I the only one here who didn’t get past this bit:
I pride myself on being a little more Brit-savvy than the average Murrican (I’ve even been to Cardiff), but I have no idea what this means.
And I don’t get this, either:
How is liberal here different from liberal over there?
In Europe, liberal means liberal, ie non-authoritarian. In America, liberal apparently means “leftist”, which has caused me no end of confusion.
No, it’s perfectly legal. I’m talking about things like treating the prostitute like - well, like a whore. Degrading words, violent roleplaying, and the like. Having the option to do that, and indeed doing it just because you can pay, is not likely to improve your outlook on women.
God bless you, my friend.
Butlins: rather regimented chain of holiday camps aimed at working class communities, had their heyday in the 50s and 60s.
Pwllelli: the North Wales site of one of these holiday camps.
Scousers: people from Liverpool (and therefore in the catchment area of Butlins Pwllelli).
Well, as someone who’s spent the last 12 years as a dancer, I can say not only is dancing your way through college not only NOT an Urban Legend, it’s also the way alot of single mothers make their own way, especially with multiple children.
You may not be able to pay your tuition in 1 dollar bills, but a whole bunch of 20$ bills every night can sure help out.
I’m not either of the above two categories, but I know quite alot of girls who’ve been one, the other, or both.
Sure, it’s not what you want your daughter to do for a living, but it’s a legal, safe job (granted, depending on the type of club you work in). You’re right in that alot of the girls come from abusive homes, but while it’s not the exception, it’s not the rule, either.
As far as you never having an intellectual conversation with a dancer, well, it may not take a rocket scientist to do what I do, but alot of girls play dumber than they are. Most guys coming to Gentlemen’s Clubs don’t come for the conversation.
Yeah, what about my children? Won’t somebody please think of my children?
That I personally would be bothered by it is not a good reason to be opposed to… anything, really.
And, you know, if my child has decided to take up prostituiton, that’s presumably because they’ve decided that the alternatives are worse. Even if prostituiton being illegal would be enough to dissuade them, that doesn’t mean we’ve actually improved their situation - we’ve just made prostituiton an even more horrible choice. Which sure as hell isn’t doing any favours to those who still think prostitiution is their best option.
Aren’t we talking past eachother here? When I mentioned rape, and you agreed that we were talking about rape, I kind of assumed we were talking about, you know, rape. The defining thing about rape isn’t that it’s unpleasant or degrading, it is that it’s nonconsensual. Somehow, I doubt that the rape laws of the Netherlands have a clause that says “unless the victim is a prostitute”.
And do you have any reason to think that anyone would do that “just because they can pay”? Someone is only going to do that if they expect to get off on it, in which case they either already do not have a nice and shiny outlook on women, or they’re just-plain-into-BDSM-no-reason-to-make-a-freaking-gender-issue-out-of-it.
Originally Posted by SentientMeat:
Full of scousers, strangely: it was like Butlins Pwllelli.
This is a Yank speaking, so any Brits feel free to correct…
Scousers are people from Liverpool, who almost to an individual have an inpenetrable accent but can be an absolute blast to hang out with. You just have to nod along a lot.
Butlins is a strange British phenomenon, kind of a ‘Holiday camp.’ In the states, I would refer to them as slightly better than a trailer park, but the trailers are rented by the week and are generally pretty seedy.
Pwllelli (pronounced pug-helli) is a town in Wales that is notorious for being quite rough and nasty - I got a pool cue thrown at my head there one time. The lad did apologize to me, though, after I ‘explained’ that I wasn’t British…
I never agreed we were talking about rape. You asked if doing things without asking or caring about your partner’s opinion were usually called “rape”. I said yes.
And if someone’s outlook on women is not nice and shiny, or downright ugly, or even pretty much noncalculated and noncontemplated, do you think it is improved or worsened by being able to treat women like that?
Heh, generally correct but the pronunciation you suggest is way off. Since it’s a Welsh name and the “ll” represents a consontant sound not found in English I have no idea at all how you’d do better though.
You said that even in Amsterdam, one “can do a lot of things without even asking (or caring about)” one’s partner’s opinion (post #40). I said that this is generally known as rape (#41). You agreed, and added that “Even if you can’t go the full whips-and-chains-and-soldering-irons route in Amsterdam, […] you can do many things.” (#42). Presumably, given that what you said was a direct reply to my post, and given that you used , you were still talking about the same things as in post 40. I said that surely then these things are illegal (#43). You said no, it’s legal (#50). I said I doubted rape was legal (#54). You say we’re not talking about rape (#56).
If you’re playing some fucked up semantic game, kindly cut it out. If you’re just being horribly unclear, do elucidate.
I have no idea. It is completely irrelevant. Outlawing prostituition does not stop prostituiton from existing, end even if you can magically make prostituition cease existing, that just means our Evil Man is going to have to find a woman gets off on being treated like that. Might be slightly more difficult, but these women aren’t really in short supply.
Sorry, forgot to finish that sentence. I meant to add that you used similar words compared to post 40.
Or worse, one that doesn’t.
Sex is not like alcohol. A violent alcoholic is made violent by what he imbibes but a sex beast would, I should imagine, be somewhat placated by being able to visit someone prepared to let him go a little further than “normal”.
Of course, IANASB so I couldn’t swear to it.