Continuing the discussion from Why was this useage of "queer" offensive?:
Older dopers, is this for real?
ETA: What about you know, McCarthyism?
~Max
I believe in those cases the term was always homosexual.
I’ve heard stories about groups of guy friends who would get together and mutually masturbate, which was not considered unusual or gay even if it involved them touching each other. I’ve never participated in such an activity or personally know anyone who has, but I have no reason to believe it didn’t happen (or doesn’t still happen, for that matter).
Hopefully someone more knowledgeable can come along and confirm (or debunk) this.
Hence this topic, because I have never before heard that there was a distinction between male-on-male sex and homosexual relations, especially not in the '50s.
~Max
The scope of adolescent male sexuality is great.
Once, out in the Sacramento valley, a friend warned me to never buy a freshly holed watermelon.
Huh?
Homosexual is inclusive of male-on-male sex.
We had those stories in 2013, too. One of our teachers, who was secretly-not-so-secretly closeted, liked to make fun of “those kids” as exploring their homosexuality.
~Max
Unfortunately that is labeling.
They were exploring their sexuality.
I don’t believe this is true, at least insofar as it seems to suggest that it was accepted, and no big deal.
I mean, I have no doubt that it was done, but whether the reason was “can’t get a date” vs that being the rationalization for doing it is highly questionable to me.
I wasn’t alive in the 50s, but I’m old enough to know that that kind of activity would be seen as shameful and not to be talked about, which would be part of showing that you weren’t really homosexual. I mean, a guy would not say to, probably anyone, “so when Billy was giving me a hand job last night, I was thinking…”
It may have been societally recognized that men might engage in homosexual behavior when isolated in a same sex environment (the Navy, prison, boarding school) but part of that recognition is to try to account for that homosexual activity. The concept that male sexuality is so overpowering that a man might “have to” engage in homosexual activity (then never speak of it again) is a lot less threatening than recognizing that some men are aren’t 100% heterosexual, even though they look and act just like other manly men.
Since the OP was asking for first-hand experience, I will pass on what little I had.
I was a child in the 50’s, born in 1949. I do not recall any outright mention of either sex between men or homosexuality per se. I remember public service announcements on TV (as far as I can remember) warning boys not to hang around public restrooms, but they did not say why. I may have only seen one of these, or possibly more, or more often than once.
I somehow knew enough to “know” that boys being attracted to other boys was utterly and completely shameful. I knew this because at age 7 I realized that I was attracted to other boys, and that I had to hide that attraction as deeply as I possibly could, or my life would effectively be over.
Between ages 8 and 13 I would often go with my friend to his house after school, and he always made me wait outside in the hallway while he changed from his school clothes, so that I would not see him in his underwear. I imagine this rule came from his parents. But the implication was quite clear to me even at the time.
My first exposure to a lot of naked boys my own age was in high school freshman and sophomore gym locker rooms, where we all had to shower communally after class. I was always very careful to show no interest. It helped that I had to take my glasses off for the shower, so I couldn’t see very well anyway. There was a small amount of self-conscious joking around among some of the boys about dick size and so on, with the unspoken implication that such thoughts were very naughty indeed.
I think I was in high school when I saw the movie Advise and Consent on TV. It made me physically ill, but it also opened my eyes about that world a little, including that I was not the only one. If you haven’t seen it, or read the book, go find some spoilers about it somewhere. In 1968 there was the movie The Detective, which was also pretty repulsive on this subject.
By the time I was a senior in high school, there were rumors about a couple of my male classmates, and one of them once tried, feebly and ineffectively, to come on to me (I think that was what he wanted, anyway).
So in summary, in my world there was no boys fooling around, mutual masturbation, or horny guys together. For that matter, there were no acknowledged homosexuals that I knew of. The use of evidence of homosexual behavior to blackmail someone was unknown to me (until Advise and Consent).
My experience is obviously not universal, but I believe for someone of my age at that time it is pretty representative.
Perhaps one event offering historical perspective is the Boise Idaho gay sex scandal of 1955
Was it Starving Artist or Shodan who told stories about participating in circle jerks who struggled to comprehend that, no, that wasn’t happening everywhere?
It is difficult to describe the complexity of culture. It makes me aware of how different 1950 was from today. It really was different. Virginity was valued and birth control was not available at Walmart. Sex was not a subject you discussed. Nobody would talk about a hand job.
There was homosexuality, but it was an ostracized activity. I may have mis-characterized it. It was looked on more as a matter of a substitute for male-female sex. There were male prostitutes in the Filmore district and female impersonators at Finocchios, but that did not get much press and it wasn’t discussed. It did not require any labeling beyond homosexuality. Folks lived as they wished and nobody made an issue of it.
Thanks for your perspective. Although you would have come of age after the '50s I had always assumed homosexuality was just sort of not spoken of or shamed away in the '50s.
The actor from Perry Mason and Ironsides also comes to mind, I forget his name Raymond Burr. I read once that he had “for show” girlfriends &etc to avoid the stigma of being homosexual.
~Max
Born in '59 so grew up in the '60s & '70s and any talk of that nature would have been teasing or accusations.
Such things presumably did occur but I never heard of them.
(Done finished my chores, so I have time for a better response to the OP)
A 1950’s version of the Bluejackets Manual (the USN enlisted guidebook) stated clearly that most men have a tendency to bisexuality. (I was surprised they said that officially in the 1950’s). This allowed a waiver for isolated experimentation (aka “any port in a storm”)with only a warning (aka the “Queen for a Day” clause).
It was understood that male sexuality was a brutish force that must find outlet (a belief that still persists: you’ll hear “3 out of 4 men admit they would rape a women if they believe they won’t be punished” Wow - but closer examination shows that was from a question put to 86 college boys). Even if we buy this brute urge theory, would it be enough to make horny guys fuck each other against personal preference and social restrictions?
Maybe, but consider how, back when good-paying jobs for women were scarcer, prostitution was plentiful.
People have been whispering rumors about farmers shagging watermelons, or shepherds shagging sheep, for centuries. It was acknowledged that a lonely guy might be tempted.
But it was always something that Other people did.
It occurred to me that Alfred Kinsley et al were at work during the relevant time period. Here’s something I found on the Kinsley Institute,
Sexual Behavior in the Human Male (1948) and Sexual Behavior in the Human Female (1953) reported that:
- 37% of males and 13% of females had at least some overt homosexual experience to orgasm
~Max
I’m not sure where you are going with this Max. I thought it was about the connotation of Queer.
No, there’s an ATMB topic about that. This one is for what people in the 1950s thought about male/male sex.
~Max