In which I am a crabby old goat about 'they/them' pronouns

The BBQ Pit
1

You know, for the most part I don’t care. When I was a teenager, I even would have found it cute for someone to always be referred to by ‘they/them.’

But it stopped being funny when y’all got so earnest about it, and so offended at being ‘gendered.’

No, you do not have the right to tell me what pronouns to use in my sentences, in my language, which I have been speaking since before you were born, and which I care about more than I care about you.

No, I am not ‘being antagonistic.’ You are being pretentious.

You have no more right to make me call any person ‘them’ to insist that I only use Norwegian pronouns to refer to them. Look, just there I used ‘them’ because there’s a semantic reason for it–referring to an indefinite person. That’s idiomatic in my dialect. You know what isn’t idiomatic in my dialect? Calling a defined person ‘them’ to suit their pretension!

No, this isn’t me being an ignorant backward right-winger. This is me, an educated person who knows a little bit about both history and linguistics, recoiling at the self-importance of someone insisting that we use only plural pronouns to refer to them (and there’s that indefinite one again).

Yes, I recognize that this is ironic considering that I am posting this in an online forum where I mention my own sex rarely enough that ‘them’ is actually a rational way to refer to me. But see, I have accepted that I’m going to get called variously ‘he,’ ‘she,’ ‘they,’ and possibly ‘xe.’ If I cared, I’d put a little symbol up. But I learned I don’t have to care so much about how people refer to me.

OK, maybe I’m just weird.

I’m still going to use singular pronouns for you sometimes. No, not ‘it.’ Sadly, ‘it’ has a ‘depersonalizing’ gender in Modern English. Maybe a neuter pronoun would work in Czech or something, but I don’t speak that language, so I don’t know.

Why am I being disagreeable about this? If I try to explain, you’d call it a rant. Not that your grace wants an explanation, just compliance.

And as a child of generations of American republicans, not to mention as a socialist, I’ll call you a singular pronoun like a normal person if I damn well please.

2

I’m sure people will call you what they want, as well. :slight_smile:

It doesn’t bother me. It might be awkward at first learning how to use certain pronouns, but if it helps someone who’s been marginalized feel more comfortable, it doesn’t take anything away from me to accommodate them.

3

Pronouns are shorthand for proper nouns, right? Would it bother you if, contrary to your request, people insisted on using their own version of your name?

“I dont care what you want to be called, it’s pretentious for you to expect me to call you ‘foolsguinea’ instead of ‘fool.’”

It costs nothing to make an effort to adhere to someone’s desires in pronouns. Or names.

4

You are of course free to request that people call you any word you want in lieu of a conventional pronoun. And literally everyone in the world (at least, everyone lucky enough not to be under your insane authority) is free to say, ‘Yeah, no, I’m not doing that.’

5

But you don’t call people by their pronouns. You call them by their name (or, usually, not). You use pronouns to talk about them to other people.

6

I can live with they, but there is no amount of awkward circulation I would not resort to in order to avoid ever having to use xi/ze/xem/zoopity and whatever else gets made up tomorrow.

7

nm

8

You’re free to not do that, and others are free to think of you as an asshole for refusing to accede to a request that literally costs you nothing. Just as a general rule, if someone says “please call me X”, and X is not a slur, profanity, obscenity, etc., just fucking call them X.

9

I agree. Calling a known defined individual “they” is stupid. If someone wants to pretend they don’t have a binary gender:dubious: then I will accede by using constructs like ze or “that person”. Don’t pretend to be 2 or more people.

10

This is not exactly true, as I have to remember what prounoun a given person uses, momentarily suspend my disbelief in this entire conceit, and submit to a stranger’s will about how I should change the way I speak and think.

If it’s someone I care about, or someone who seems cool, I may choose to go along with they/them just out of my personal regard and respect for them. Or, If they decide their name is now Henrietta instead of Spike, I’ll happily use the chosen name and he/she prounoun. Or Christ forbid they want to be called ‘it’, then OK. Have fun, play tag.

But you insist on they/them, and are being a dick about it, I’m not getting wrapped around the axle about it. This is your internal drama, not mine.

11

So if there were, say, a 25-cent fee per pronoun the OP’s position would be reasonable?
mmm

12

Using “They” to refer to a singular indefinite person is well established through centuries of literary English. Your “that’s how the language works”-argument is thus rather weak.

13

That’s not generally what desiring to use “they” means.

14

I’m an old crabby person too and I still don’t understand the resistance to being kind to other people in the name of some sort of misguided stubborness. Personally, I don’t find picking one’s own name/self-identity to be pretentious, but, then again, I’m not a socialist.

15

I can be as curmudgeonly as they come, but it amazes me how vehemently people resist this, and how half-baked linguistic arguments are used as proxy for “I don’t wanna!”

  1. They as singular is old and established.

  2. While I’m sure the number of people who this language as some kind of academic/intellectual exercise is non-zero, fundamentally this is a language development that addresses a need, and so is in no way pretentious. If you feel like people are insulting you when they use these words (or request that they be used), that’s your issue to work through.

  3. I think there are some worthwhile and interesting discussions to be had about, say, whether or not a limitless list of gender neutral pronouns is a useful/reasonable tool. Or whether or not the verb conjugation should be singular or plural when using ‘they’ singular (this blog seems to think it should be singular, which is just ridiculous IMHO :slight_smile: ). But, the fundamental usefulness of a non-gendered singular pronoun shouldn’t really be in question, and the desire of a person to be referred to in such a way is in no way an assault on anyone else’s way of thinking/speaking.

Consider:

“Hi, I’m Sam. And, I like to be referred to with gender-neutral pronouns; they/them/their.”

“No, I’m calling you her. Get over yourself.”

One of these people is being “self-important” and “pretentious”, but it isn’t who the OP thinks it is.

16

Let’s don’t stop at pronouns.
I say that you should be able to use any words you want to farm dog erector set backhoe rumbling at Victor button!

17

And nothing of empathy, apparently.

Reactionary fucks shouldn’t call themselves socialists.

(in English, thankfully, Comrade is nicely gender-neutral)

18

This is what is confusing me. foolsguinea, are you saying that you have a problem referring to, for instance, a woman, as “they” instead of"she" when talking to another person? I’m old and crabby too and I must admit,it does take a bit of effort to go against the rules that were drilled into my head long ago. But, do people really tell other people how to speak about them in their absence? Not trying to be difficult, I’m just not sure I’m grasping it.

19

The way I read the OP is the he (?) is willing to go along, more or less, but not if he slips up and people get all agro about it:

Emphasis added.

But I agree that the whole linguistic argument works against him (?). The ship has sailed* on the use of singular they, so if the singular part bothers you, you’re fighting a losing battle.

*And “sailed” is proper since self-powered ships didn’t exist when this particular one left the harbor centuries ago.

20

I suspect it’s due to one (or more) of the following reasons:

(1) The feeling that a person who insists on being referred to as “they” or “them” is thereby saying “I’m Special and I want to be treated differently. The normal rules and conventions aren’t good enough for me.”

(2) A resistance to the idea that not everybody fits neatly into the category “male” or “female.”

(3) Resistance to change, or cognitive dissonance: it clashes with my mental map of reality, what I know/believe about The Way Things Work.
I have some sympathy to the OP’s point of view, and when I try to figure out why, I suspect there may be at least a bit of all three of these lurking in my mind, and I tell myself that none of them are really good enough reasons to go against someone else’s wishes for how they want to be referred to.