The reason to help them is because they’re your students, not because they’re your burden. And yes if they won’t tow the line, then the hell with them and try to help others.
It looks to me the only PC’er here is you and a bit of an elitist too.
I can’t get your cites to work, they all lead to the UofT log in.
As I wrote the above, I was reminded of a Politically Incorrect I once watched. Chris Rock was one of the guests. As usual, Bill Mahr was talking in a bit of a rambling, loving-to-hear-his-own-voice kind of way when suddenly, Chris Rock interupted with:
“What the fuck are you talking about, man?!”
The crowd roared.
I find Bill Mahr funny in an intellectual way. I find Chris Rock hilarious in an emotional way. There’s no reason why intellectual humor should be placed on a pedastal over more heart-felt stuff. Why should it be? Funny is funny.
If black culture exists (and I think it does), I think you will find emotionalism emphasized over intellectualism. You can be smart, but don’t be cold in your demeanor, emotionally stiff, and bent on living by a bunch of uncomfortable mores (like staying up all night so you can get an “A” on the AP English exam). In other words, be “cool” man. Just chill…till the next episode.
Are you for real???
First you agree that statements which can’t be proven shouldn’t be presented as fact. And then you deny that the presentation of statements which can’t be proven as factual is full of shit.
Goddamn!
I don’t know what your deal is, honestly. A cite isn’t forthcoming because he can not prove his point. And yet, he won’t retract it. What else am I supposed to do other than point that out whenever he makes his unproven claims? It’s not about winning, it’s about truth!
Oh please!
I lived in Manhattan, I saw the situation that many Asian imigrants lived in. They certainly weren’t hiding money under the floorboards. And yes, you want to bring history into it, fallaciously. The fact remains that whether your grandparents were yak herders or oil barons, unless you’ve got a huge chunk of cash then education is your most sure fire way to upward mobility.
Mmm hmm. So in your world, intellectuals accept things just so the conversation can continue. (psst, that’s cocktail party hostesses, not intellectuals.)
Nobody has claimed that asian families and black familes are the same. There is, however, a claim that those which value education highly are more upwardly mobile. There are also claims (made by scholars, with data), that many young black males do not value education.
So the fact that he can’t prove his assertions and yet won’t retract them reflects badly on me?
I’m supposed to “accept” that his position is totally devoid of factual confirmation? Just let that slide, eh? So the conversation can continue?
“The moon is made of green cheese. I won’t prove it. Just accept it as true so we can keep talking.” :rolleyes:
Who cares if they have more status or less? That’s completely beside the point!
The point is that regardless of starting status, education improves it.
Wow… you’d think my cites would have mentioned something like that. Oh, wait, they did. :smack:
If you think that the welfare of my students isn’t my burden, you’ve not taken enough courses on education.
Shit. I’m glad teachers are trained in the exact opposite paradigm.
“Kid has a problem? Fuck 'em! There are other kids.”
Riiiight. I’m an elitist because… I use data? I believe that education is valuable? Do tell. As for me being PC, I don’t know what to say to that. It’s just loony.
K, hold on.
2nd cite:
Why the Large and Growing Gender Gap in African-American Higher Education?
The Journal of Blacks in Higher Education, No. 19. (Spring, 1998), pp. 34-35.
3rd cite:
Educating and Motivating African American Males to Succeed, by Antoine M. Garibaldi
The Journal of Negro Education © 1992
(sorry, JSTOR is being odd and won’t let me record two cites at once it seems. And it’s got the first one cached even though I’ve removed it.)
And you’d have a point if we were talking about comics.
But we’re not.
Trying to get a job which requires a college degree by cracking jokes won’t get you that far.
So you want to apply for a top flight, high paying job. And you say that you’ve got no credentials, but man are you ever chill.
“Sir, we’re looking for someone with five years of experience as well as an MA or preferably a PhD.”
“Well, I didn’t stay up all night to get any A’s, but I’m pretty chill!”
Think you’re going to get the job?
I disagree, everyone needs mojo, some more than others.
Do leading examples work for you usually? There is no starting wage for playing guitar in your mother’s garage because there isn’t any revenue coming in. You can’t compare that to someone with an employer with revenue.
You’re making the assumption that the kid playing guitar can ONLY play guitar. What if he can: Build a guitar, Do lighting, Run a sound board, Fix an amp, Recone a speaker, build a stage, build a set, play weddings and bat mitzvahs? None of these REQUIRE a college education.
When I was 22 I was making 40k a year + benefits full medical/dental and a 401k not having a lick of college. I was teaching all the college graduates how to use a computer at the most basic level. My friend who HAS a college degree just told me how great it was that he was getting a raise from 12 an hour to 15 an hour. I charge anywhere from 40-100 an hour.
The whole “Everyone needs college” thing is a myth, and I know a lot of people pretty bitter about that whole myth.
Being social and gregarious can get you a whole lot in this world. I have gotten a number of my contacts that have turned into jobs from going out partying and doing lots of drugs with them.
The truth is, a college degree doesn’t hold as much weight as it used to because of people like you thinking it’s a panacea for all of society’s ills, when in reality what’s happened is a lot of young kids in a whole lot of debt with very few prospects, and even less prospects for all the kids that DIDN’T go into debt. By perpetuating that myth, all you do is water down the effect of a college degree.
Maybe the backlash caused by this myth is why people of ALL races don’t respect it.
Erek
Most people who want to be rock stars, aren’t. As such, they have no revenue. Most people who go to college get jobs. As such, they have revenue. Honestly, what else is there to say?
How many multitalented individuals like that are there?
How many could find work?
Yes, it’s possible to earn a good living without a degree.
It’s not likely though.
There are exceptions to any rule.
Do most people, without experience in computer science/technology, who don’t have degrees, go on to make lots of money?
Funny… virtually every job that’s high paying which I see demands at least a college degree. Don’t confuse ‘you don’t need a college degree’ with ‘a college degree doesn’t provide an advantage.’
Ah, that’s how we should instruct our children.
Fuck school, go out, party and do drugs. Put that on a resume.
Actually, I’ve specificaly said education isn’t a panacea.
And as for why it doesn’t hold as much weight, it’s because it’s now the accepted minimum.
So, even in your warped view, those who go to college have more prospects than those who don’t (eg. those who don’t go into debt for education.)
Or maybe it’s because it’s the minimum requirement and employers are asking for more?
But ya know what? It’s late, I’m tired, and my head hurts.
I’ve provided the research, and the scientific studies. More is out there if you look it up.
I’m done with this. Let’s all pretend that college isn’t a better thing than a high school degree, and the statistics aren’t something to be worried about. I’m through.
Not being able to prove something does not make it false.
The truth is that it may or may not be true. He believes it to be true, you don’t have to, but going citecitecitecitecitecitecitecitecitecitecite is pedantry NOT intellectualism.
Yes, many asian immigrants, but the specific example was that of asian immigrants that started out with a leg up.
Yes, education CAN improve upward mobility. I’ll give you a hint, those of us outside of collegiate circles refer to “education” as “learning”. It might help you when communicating with the plebes. The difference between “learning” and education is that you can do it anywhere, and not just in the collegiate temples where you are supervised by the academic priests. Maybe just maybe, they don’t believe in the education you’re selling. You have shown an ignorance of the problem when Monstro used the Chris Rock vs Bill Maher example. You don’t have to approach education as a WASP in order for it to be lofty enough. Chris Rock even has a joke about that. “Keeping it real? Yeah, keeping it real dumb.”, Chris Rock is a brilliant and educated man, but he is most definitely cooler than Bill Maher who is also a brilliant and educated man.
Yes, you made your point, it’s time to move on. Mojo would help you in this. Or else if you need a cite you can just refer to tact
Until they can prove that the moon landing wasn’t performed in a film studio I guess we’ll never know for sure. Though it looks grey from here, sometimes red, or even blue. I’ve never seen it look green.
You know what I can agree with this without needing a cite. I have transcended being a mere intellectual and am now elevated to the status of COCKTAIL HOSTESS!
I’m sorry if I missed something in your volumes and volumes and volumes and volumes and volumes and volumes of cites.
Erek
Would you say that most people with college degrees have a job in their field?
I know a whole fucking lot of them. Anyone who has gone out and participated in life actually.
Do most people with college degrees go out to make lots of money? Is money the standard by which all success should be measured? What salary constitutes lots of money?
Most people in successful positions I know of, whether they went through college or not carved out their own niche in society.
Just debunking myths. Winners do occasionally use drugs. 
Would you say that it’s a good thing that it is the minimum requirement even though employers often have to retrain college graduates because they have few practical skills?
It’s not your data we have the problem with, it’s your elitist attitude. Your data’s great, we appreciate it. College isn’t universally better than a High School Diploma. A sense of purpose and some goals help a whole lot.
Erek
No, the discussion which prompted me to enter the fray was when you started talking about Asians and drawing comparisons with blacks. We are having multiple discussions here, not one. But I understand if you want to forget what you said earlier.
The only person here talking about PC is you. Stop it.
If we want to fix the under-achievement of black males–and you have stated that this is a “black” problem–how does it help matters to target individuals?
You use individuals and groups interchangeably almost. They are not the same thing. If underachievement is a problem of black culture, it makes sense to tackle this thing at the level of groups. And get this: There is nothing wrong with this strategy!
I don’t have any beef with your academics’ data, for the last time. I don’t have a beef with the citations you’ve posted. My issue was with you highlighting their “blackness” as if this in itself would deflect charges against racism. It doesn’t.
Atheletics and academics are not as mutually exclusive as you’re making it sound like. The former has helped hundreds of thousands enter college and obtain degrees. It is the degree that perhaps gets them into the workforce, but “throwing a ball” was the route that got them to that point.
Cite for such small percentages?
I know most colleges and universities look favorably on extracurricular activities to the point that they are almost required for admittance. Isn’t our entertainment industry composed of much more than 1% of the population? How about professions that are community-oriented? It seems to the above activities has helped much more than one percent of the population reach success. Our society isn’t run by brainacs, thank God.
I didn’t put forward “throwing a ball”. You did. And the fact that you would belittle sports like that reflects on your own snobbery.
There are no guarantees in this society. Having a BS or BA does not entitle you to more money, more power, or anything else you define “success” as being. You are more likely to make money if you have a college career, yes. But I know plenty of people who have all kinds of fancy alphabets who can’t find a job and are actually doing worse than their parents.
I’m not arguing that people without college degrees aren’t at a disadvantage with those who have college degrees. Nothing I’ve said should give you this idea. My point is that it isn’t the “book stuff” you learn in school that dictates your success. Having the degree and the high GPA is going to help you, sure, but so is being socially aware, plucky, savvy, practical, and taking risks.
I don’t believe my sister is such a rarity. I’ve met many people who were “late bloomers” or underachievers in school who turned out to go on to great things. They may not be driving luxury automobiles and living in mansions, but they are successful because they are happy.
Of course I would. But I’m more likely to be rejected for a variety of positions–most of the positions out there, in fact–simply because I am over-qualified. My skill set is overly specialized.
Maybe I should do a survey on the board and have Dopers post their high school GPA alongside with their present salary. I don’t think my sister is an exception or the rule, but I do not have the data to back me up. Do you, for your assertion?
Why do you keep saying this? I can’t get the same jobs that she can, nor do I want to. That doesn’t mean she’s more or less successful than I am.
If they are so inclined. Some of the best paying jobs out there are for the trades. I believe thousands of kids are being rangled into college when they’d do best in a vocational school. Our society is raising a bunch of snobs who think they’re too good to fix a car, drive a bus, snake a toliet, install an air conditioner, and run a forklift. Pretty soon we’ll see plenty of Ph.Ds doing these occupations. That’s when we’ll all start wondering how we lost our way to common sense.
I will encourage my kids to go to college because you’re right; college will see them to most jobs. But this is an artifical requirement. Society ran just fine fifty years ago when most folks had a high school degree. It wasn’t academics that made people “losers” and “winners” back then. It was that other, “less important” stuff.
You are a giant jerk.
Look, if you are going to ruminate about “black culture this”, “black culture that”, it might help you to understand how “black culture” differs from mainstream culture. And guess what? The differences are much more nuanced and complicated than dumb=cool=black. It has to do with how black people are raised to interact and relate with themselves and others. In some cases, these cultural ways breed success. In others, it does not.
Black culture isn’t failing most blacks, obviously, since most of us are middle-class, hard-working Americans. And one need only turn on the TV or listen to the radio and get evidence that black culture actually promotes high levels of success in some venues. Villifying routes of success that don’t match some arbritrary standard is ridiculous to me.
Of course, the whole point of me bringing this up wasn’t to argue against the OP. I do believe anti-intellectualism is a big problem in the black community. But I also think black people aren’t losers when it comes to other areas of life and living. Our success in these areas shouldn’t be ignored or downplayed as being insignificant–in fact our ways should be respected and emulated.
I am “chilling” right on outta here.
No, I’m not kidding you.
I did read the Noguera article, but the only mention of girls I found was a reference to the Luker pregnancy study.
The Journal of Black in Higher Ed and Journal of Negro Ed cites required registration with UT, including DOB, which I prefer not to do.
I didn’t read the Blair cites because I assumed they weren’t relevant.
Could you post the relevant stats in a quote box, please? It should be easy for you to find.
Keep in mind, too, that I’m not saying that this effect is uniform among whites, but can be expected to vary according to socioeconomic status and perceived social status.
I’ve seen this effect in the real word, and not just in the schools I went to as a kid. I know that it’s not just the African American culture that suffers from this kind of anti-intellectualism.
Also, the influences I mentioned in my earlier post (glorification of sports/entertainment figures in the media, and lack of adult male role models in the home) are prominent in many cultures – again, not treating white culture as monolithic. So again, I don’t believe they can be credibly cited as causative.
If you can post some relevant passages from your sources, or point me to print sources or online sources that don’t require intrusive registration, I’ll be glad to check them out, because I’m genuinely interested in the subject.
Thanks.
Certain forms of education are very solitary pursuits, and if a culture promotes being social over being solitary, that would go a long way toward explaining why that culture might be a bit leery of things that isolate their young people.
I could see that being true of many black communities, especially when it’s a threatened community. (It is definitely true of the white community in which I live. Make friends and you might get help when you need it. Go to school and you still might need help but you haven’t spent the time building the network.) Networking, having someone watching out for you and keeping you safe, would be a much more immediate benefit when the culture perceives an “enemy at the gate” so to speak. Which is more useful if you feel threatened, straight As or a big group of friends? I’d go with the latter!
Too bad you bailed FinnAgain this thread might actually gotten really interesting. Anyway the charges of elitism has nothing to do with requiring cites ( you notice no one seems able to access the cites you’ve provided; but will haven’t claimed your “proof” is irrelevant.), but your determination that unless someone attains a B.A. they are doomed to failure or that a B.A. will ensure you a stepping stone to success.
As Monstro and others have noted, success is not just a matter of a resume and this is a country founded on self-made people. It’s the one quality we still value and I like the others know many people who through their own strength of will and determination make a good, decent living…without more than a high school degree from a third rate school.
It’s cite time, I know how much you love the cites.
Things are getting better, no?
This article also speaks a bit about the gender gap :
WFT? Is this the type of ‘sources’ you’re citing? The Black man is so weak and insecure, that if his spouse makes more money, he’s going to beat her? You did cite the Journal of Black Higher Education, right?
You may not see it, Finn, but your posts in this thread do appear to contradict ideas you’ve expressed in other threads. I’m not saying this to inflame, because I don’t think you’re a bad guy. But it is obvious that in this thread your standards of judgement are much more narrow-minded than they appear in other discussions.
Remember featherlou’s thread, Girls, have some respect for yourselves? Here are things you said:
So what about education and intellect? I’ll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you’re only talking about attracting mates, and not much more. But it seems like when it comes to sex appeal vs. mind, you seem to hold them as equally valuble traits. I don’t see you insisting on one being better than the other. Can’t say that here, though.
Except if they are black guys trying be cool, right? Then you can judge them all day. And with much vehemence.
Yes, who’s to say indeed.
Again, I’m not trying to poke you with a stick or anything. Just pointing out that even within your own belief system, things are not that black and white. Who is to say that success should always be measured by money, degrees, and job titles? Just as you have admonished others for judging women for getting by on their boobs instead of relying on their brains, allow others to admonish your attitude towards those who pursue non-intellectual tracks in life.
Peace.