You should ignore them, because you’re an arrogant (and baselessly so) little crap with nothing constructive to say about the subject. Besides denigrating blacks as being purposeful underachievers, what is your point?
Duke of Rat, I don’t disagree with you completely, but I don’t think you will get people to improve themselves by citing an external factor, like the sacrifice of of parents’ and grandparents’. I didn’t excel in school because of MLK. I excelled because I thought I was capable and had aspirations. It had nothing to do with the civil rights movement.
Being “cool” is what kids do. I will never forget the day when all the kids in my orchestra class was acting up in high school (even me, and I was a goody goody) and the substitute (a black guy) started yelling just at the black kids. He called us sambos and pickaninnies, while ignoring all the white kids in the room. I suppose he was of the mindset that we black kids should act like grateful little angels, but how is that freedom? The civil rights movement was about treating people like individuals. Why should I be held to a higher standard than other people?
When I was in school, black kids who succeeded were not called wannabe whites. My AP classes were populated by black kids and none of us were teased for being “white”. Now, I have been teased in that way because of my appearance and lack of “coolness” (inability to dance, speak slang, taste in music, etc.) but not because of my brain.
I argue that the kids who get that label thrown at them are the ones who have disassociated themselves from black people or do not have black people as friends. When I was in college, I remember black classmates laughing about this guy on campus–a black guy–who seemed to go out of his way to hang out with whites. And yes, he talked “white” (it wasn’t an absence of slang or ebonics in his speech…it was more like his inflection and style). It is still unfair to make fun of someone like this, BUT realize that it isn’t simply dumb=cool=black.
What makes this a “fundamental dynamic”? Say it plain, without the academic gobblygook.
It doesn’t do much good to compare Asians to the descendants of African slaves. The differences outweigh the similarities. One is light-skinned. The other is dark-skinned (in other words, more different from "mainstream). One came over here voluntarily, with strong cultural attachments. The other was brought over here involuntarily, with culture almost completely raped away. One group came over facing the xenophobia usually associated with immigration, as well as some nasty incidents of racism. The other faced 300 years of race-based oppression–including massive economic and political disenfrancisement. One group has a list of positive stereotypes attached to it. The other has a long list of negative stereotypes. And on and on…
As pizzabrat said, the only commonality between Asians and blacks is that they are racial minorities. Just like apples and oranges are both fruits. We can discuss “fundamental dynamics” as much as we want, but what good will it do except remind us how there isn’t anything “fundamental” about the model-minority mythology of Asian Americans.
Black academics can be racist too. Even racist (and classist) against others of their “group”.
Anti-intellectualism is rampant in our society. Period. I believe it is more heavily entrenched among black kids. But most ills in our society tend to impact black people, because of our long-time historical position on the bottom rung of everything.
I will also say this: success in schools can be defined in a multitude of ways. Earning astronomical GPAs and taking a full slate of advanced courses is one way of being successful. But excelling in sports, music, and participating in excurricular activities like student council, clubs, and civic groups are also routes to success. It seemed to me that growing up, white kids in my school were more likely to stick to the books and make good grades. You could be bet on all the advanced classes being predominately white. Meanwhile, black kids dominated the band and chorus, all the sports (except for soccer), cheerleading, color guard, most of the clubs, and filled the ranks of student government. Most of the student aides were also black. My HS was 60% black, but the skew in representation was not proportional.
It was a big deal when two of the white girls in my class decided to try out and then join the all-black cheerleading squad. I don’t think anti-white racism had kept them out all those years; it was simply their own perception that cheerleading was a “black” thing at our school. And I’m sure some of their friends disapproved with them bucking the status quo like that.
My point is that there are cultural difference at play, but probably not in the way most people think. If you come from a culture that values well-roundedness, socialibility, and performance-related activities, your focus will be on extracurricular activities. If you come from a culture that values competitiveness and intellectualism, your energies will be directed towards academics. I believe it is unfair to villify either of these avenues to “success”. They are different but not inherently inferior or superior to one another.
Define selling themselves short.
So what? Who’s to say this disparity doesn’t exist between boys and girls among whites?
Indeed, there were outstanding black students before MLK et al, I suppose more of this legacy is that you went to an integrated school. What difference this had on the degree of your education can probably be answered better by you than me, yet integration was thought by some to be crucial to giving black students every opportunity to excel. Who knows, forced integration might have had an adverse effect on the psyche of black students, setting up the (presumed, many have stated that it’s not the norm) anti-intellectualism among blacks.
I just wish that, given the opportunity, every student would do their best to succeed. An educated person has a leg up on the world, and by the time he figures out that being cool wasn’t the best preparation for conquering the world, it’s too late. The people who make the rules of society, impose their wills or ills, are not the ones who rebelled through failure. We are entering a time when blacks are coming into positions of power, but the blacks in power are the ones who got an education. The ones who aspired to MLK’s dream.
Wouldn’t you concede that the civil rights movement at least tried to move blacks up a rung or two? The degree of success can be debated, but people passionately tried to even the playing field. Their efforts may not have been entirely successful, but what a pity to see any advantage at all gained through those efforts not exploited.
Sorry I forgot my cite and quote:
So were the Italians, Irish and the rest selling themselves short? This is nothing new, nor unique. If sports, entertainment or even crime has visual reward, while education doesn’t appear to, then a certain segment of the popular will gravitate towards that.
It is dishonest IMO to make this a “black” problem when is a caste one and while quoting “blacks” makes for a nice shield, it doesn’t as Monstro noted, defect charges of classism and elitism; which may be the underlying moviation for such studies.
Moron. You accusing black scholars of denigrating blacks? Crawl back into your hole dumbfuck.
Sorry it’s in plain English. No, I won’t restate it as it’s pretty damn clear. “academic gobblygook” indeed.
So it wouldn’t do any good to take one individual who attained social power through education, and compare him/her to another individual who did not gain social power because they did not go through the route of education?
You don’t see a difference between children who embrace academia and those who reject it? That isn’t fundamental enough for you?
:rolleyes:
When you’ve named people of the same ‘race’ racist for pointing out problems in their culture, you’ve totally watered down the word racism until it means nothing, at all.
And yet you continue to argue. Odd, that.
Um, no.
Throwing a ball has zilch to do with academics.
Nope.
One will get you a job and social power, the other ends once you leave high school.
Having the ability to interact with the bussiness world isn’t superior to the ability to not make any money but be able to throw a ball? Academics give you social power. Sports, unless you’re one of the top percent, do not.
I think I already have.
Having the ability to do better but choosing not to.
Unless you believe that black males are somehow not at smart as black female or whites? If you don’t believe that, then you have to accept that they’re not living up to their potential.
Burden of proof.
If it exists, prove it.
Obviously, yes.
So then why make this a black issue? What’s the reason? If you agree that all groups sometimes sell themselves short, what’s the purpose in focusing on one? Wouldn’t society be better served by changing the societial issues that cause such a problem, as opposed to declaring that Black Males are either genetically less intelligent than Black females and Whites or are failures by their own design?
Because it was an Irish (etc) issue then when it affected Irish children. And your own cite states that it was due to their culture. It affects black children now, specificaly young black males. Do you deny that the trends for young black males are disturbing? Should we ignore them? Or should we try to help?
Because you focus on the individuals who’re selling themselves short, and why they’re doing so. Then you try to fix things. Or you throw your hands up in the air and decide that it’s not pc, so fuck it all.
If there are currently any other groups which are selling themselves short, I suggest we help them too. But the cites I’ve provided (and I can provide more) point to specific cultural problems. Other cultures would have other problems which might have the same effect.
…
Changing societal issues is the same damn thing I’ve been talking about!
Haven’t you read the cites I’ve posted?
I never claimed they were genetically less intelligent, indeed, the fact that blacks are equal to anybody else is cause for concern over the performance of young black males.
Do you deny the research? If so, please point out where it is false. If you can’t do that, isn’t it time to actually look at the social dynamics which cause this problem rather than pretending they’re not there? And, yes, selling one’s self short is a failure of one’s own design, but it doesn’t occur in a vacuum. Again, did you read my cites? It’s only one factor of many, all of which need to be changed. But all of them need to be changed.
Sorry, but I’m not the one making the claim. You say that this disparity proves something about black culture. But you argue from ignorance. If this disparity is meaningful, it’s up to you to show that it deviates from norms in other groups.
It isn’t pretty damn clear. What do you mean by “fundamental dynamic” in the context of the history of Asian immigration? I’m asking partly because it makes no sense to me and partly because it contradicts what you’ve said in the past about groups not being fungible. This cite-laden article highlights that latter point.
Stop moving the goal posts. The discussion was on groups, not individuals.
Black people have valued education since it became legal for us to become educated. It is offensively wrong to cite lack of respect for education as the reason why black people have not succeeded.
If you want to affirm the value of education, I will join you. Education is certainly a great thing. But telling blacks to look at the success of Asians in this country as proof that the only thing keeping them back is their own stupidity and laziness (not saying you are doing this, but the model minority mythology encourages this thinking) is wrong.
These were not the two groups you were talking about earlier. Don’t get it twisted.
No it doesn’t. Ever heard of the term “self-hatred”? I believe it is possible to hate others of your group, especially if you were brought up believing you were somewhat “different” or “special”. Why wouldn’t I call a person like this “racist”?
Now, I don’t mean to imply anything about the black academics you’ve cited. They probably are not racist. But as a wise woman once said, my skinfolk aren’t necessarily kinfolk. I’m not automatically comforted by the way someone looks if what they’re selling smells suspect.
WTH?
Throwing a ball has zilch to do with academics, but that does not mean it isn’t a route to success. Why do you want to argue over such a basic point?
In my post, I talked about sports, music, social and civic clubs, and leadership positions. And yet you focus on one thing–“throwing a ball”.
Academics give you social power, but it is not the only way. I have a sister who was hellion in secondary school. Smart girl but she didn’t try. A “C” was a good grade for her. Never got past her community college associate’s degree. And yet, she’s making a ton more money than I am, the Ph.D in the family. She’s doing it legitimately as a financial advisor for Wachovia.
She will always be more “successful” than I am, and I will tell you why. First, she’s sociable. Loves to talk and glad-hand. She loves people and has the strong temperate for dealing with their “issues”. Me? I cower when I’m meeting new people. I’m shy and inhibited when I speak, and I get tired easily in social situations. Secondly, she’s a self-starter and risk-taker. She has no problem picking up and leaving a dead-in job because she’s got supreme self-confidence in herself. Lastly, she knows a lot of things from her diverse experiences. She’s worked in retail, nursing care, street hussling, you name it. Well-rounded is my sister’s middle name. Meanwhile, all I know is aquatic invertebrates. Ooh, I’m so smart :rolleyes:
My sister’s valuable skills weren’t acquired through pressing her nose to a book. By everyone’s standard, my sis was just another disappointing black kid because she had a low GPA. Boy were they wrong.
I was a nerd in school. I never went out and partied. I never joined clubs or went out for teams. I was all about making good grades and impressing my teachers. While my sister was developing her social and survival skills, I was counting the setae on copepods’ legs. How is that “success”? And why should I find fault with a culture that places more value on social and survival skills than accumulating esoteric knowledge?
“Throwing a ball” does not have equal footing with reading and writing, not only socially but intrinsically. This fact means that if I ever have kids, I will emphasize books over balls and microphones. But that doesn’t mean I will not encourage my kids to excel in non-academic pursuits. Nor will I deter them from going after a “non-intellectual” career path if they feel so inclined. I think all of us–black people and white people–could benefit from striking a better balance.
You fucking kidding me?
You’re the one arguing from ignorance as you’ve evidently not read my cites. The third in specific goes over the demographic breakdown.
Trying reading material before you try to debunk it, mmmkay?
I’ve already shown that it deviates from the norms of other ‘groups’. Try reading cites instead of kneejerking at their mention.
That was the Italians. The majority of immigrants valued cash in pocket over potential cash in the future. This is exactly what’s going on now.
The reason why you don’t make this a ‘black’ issue is that all blacks don’t have the same lifestyle and history. Hell first you have to define black. A haitian, isn’t going to have the same ‘history’ as a cuban or an African-American.
The same ‘cultural’ reasons for the Irish is the same for all immigrants, they needed to work, to generate income; today, not in 15 years. After several generations education has a value. African-Americans due to Jim Crow and segregation has pushed that generational shift back several more generations than it should have. That will pass, it already has. I still say you’re using a small percentage to cry the sky’s falling.
It’s not PC to realize that African-Americans don’t need special treatment, for a common historical problem. Besides I think African-Americans have had enough “help” from the Great White Father. Thank you very much.
Unless you have some mojo that will make sports, entertainment and crime, less profitable than most jobs an education can bring, I feel you’re wasting your time. Who among us, wouldn’t want to be a rock and roll star, an All Star Player or Superfly?
Some of us realize that’s not going to happen, others don’t. Such is life.
There’s a quote, I can’t remember who said it, but a leader is asked what can the white man, do to help the Negro? His answer, “Leave us alone.”
You want to help? Make sure the playing field’s level and get out of the way.
agreed
His position isn’t full of shit, it’s just that the data is extraordinarily hard to come by. I doubt there has been a study about the effect of Jayson Blair upon the reputation of black Americans.
You’re right, because I think wasting your time saying cite cite cite cite cite cite cite makes me an anti-intellectual. You’ve filled this thread asking for a cite not because you want a cite, but because you know one won’t be forthcoming, and you want to lord it over him so you can win. How about this, I am ok with you asking for a cite for the same issue five times. Then after that I become an anti-intellectual and hate evidence…grr!
If you can’t see how an immigrant family with saved income and awareness of a venerable tradition sending members of their family to use that startup capital in the US to create a business that can then be used to bring more of their family members over to the US with pre-supplied work, is different from a Black American who was descended from a black man and woman brought over by two different slave ships, and then sold at five years old having no idea what tribe his parents were even from who then lived in poverty and who’s grandfather wasn’t allowed to drink out of ‘white’ water fountains is different, then you are stooopit.
And you say I am the one who is anti-intellectual. Intellectuals don’t need proof for every little thing said in a conversation. They are willing to accept certain things, such as the difference between the asian family and the black family and not harp on it so the flow of the conversation can continue.
Again, so you are not confused, my issue with citecitecitecitecitecitecitecitecite isn’t that you wanted a cite from him initially, it’s that you never accepted it when one wasn’t forthcoming.
Erek
Yes, it is. Cleaving to education yields rewards.
Um, no, the discussion was on problems within black culture. As it happens, they affect individuals.
Take it up Howard University. :rolleyes: Offensively wrong indeed. Better call the PC police.
It’s not saying that it’s the only thing, but the statistics I’ve provided show that amongst young black males, education is often not valued highly enough. No, it’s not a panacea, but it is a first step. If you don’t want to focus on Asians as a ‘group’ I’m with you. Let’s instead focus on individuals and academics.
Yes, they are.
Don’t get it twisted.
So if a black person does the research (which nobody has yet denied. Odd, that.) And comes to the conclusion that there are societal factors, they must be self-hating? Why can’t anybody in this thread touch the data?
Yes yes, it smells suspect. But please point out either flaws in their data or methodology.
My sentiment exactly.
Um… because atheltics is a route to sucess for less than one percent of those who shoot for it, and academics is a route to sucess for most of those who shoot for it?
Pardon me.
Sports: less than one percent.
Music: less than one percent.
Social and civic clubs: less then one percent.
I just picked the most ridiculous example you put forward. Academics is the only way one can have any guarante of upward mobility.
How common is she? How many people without any degrees, what-so-ever, are hired over this with PhD’s?
And yet, I’d bet you’d have a much easier chance getting a job dealing with aquatic invertebrates than she would. Social skills are important, but when you submit a resume they don’t care how chatty you are.
How many people with low GPA’s go on to great things? Is she an exception, or the rule?
Because one will get you a job in your field, and the other won’t.
No matter how well she’s able to schmooze, she’s not going to get the same jobs you could.
Perhaps. But if you want your kid to have the best chances at the most jobs, you’ll make sure they go to college.
No the issue is that you are lumping people into this “other” category that is neither compelling nor accurate. They sure can better themselves through education, but if one side has more money initially they also have more status initially.
One simple thing to remember is that the asian immigrant is more likely to have access to a familial tradition than a black slave. That in and of itself makes all the difference.
Erek
Okay, so we recast it as 'students who are considered to be and treated as black students." What does that change?
Moreoever, the cites I provided state that this is a black issue due to certain cultural issues, presentations in the media, etc… Can you please point out where they went wrong on their specific points?
Show that it already has.
The studies I linked to discuss a widespread problem. If they’re wrong, please show me exactly where.
So the studies I linked to were, what, wrong, lying?
If they’re wrong, please point out exactly where. Same for if they’re lying.
I don’t need any mojo.
Look at the average starting wage of a college grad.
Then look at the average starting wage of someone playing guitar in their mother’s garage because they haven’t been discovered yet.
Then look at how many kids want to be rock stars, versus how many actually make it.
I see. So the statistical trend towards failure in young black males should just be ignored. Making education equal doesn’t help level the playing field. Let 'em all fail! Hell, I’m white, who the hell am I to help students whose skin color is different than mine?