Again, I’m assuming your point isn’t just to denigrate blacks, but I can’t figure out what you expect me to do with these “revelations”.
Whoops, that’ll teach me to respond without even reading the cites. I could only get to the first one (the others required registration), and it was a detailed analysis of different ways peer pressure can contribute to underacheivement. Interesting how you distilled it into “blacks don’t value education”. I’m out of this idiotic thread.
FWIW, I grew up in a Southern milltown, 60/40 white/black, that didn’t integrate its schools until well into the 1970s. Knuckleheadism wasn’t restricted to the black kids.
There was a general dislike for academic achievement.
But more importantly, no group liked to see a natural member go over the wall.
I knew a couple of black kids (two, a boy and a girl, come instantly to mind) who appeared culturally white – and not just white, but middle-class “preppy” kind of white. And yes, they were called “white” by a lot of the black kids as an insult.
I also remember a friend, a black kid, who had many white friends and moved easily between those worlds (or as easily as one could… it was easier to do on the high school campus than off it). But he was definitely culturally black. He was tall, handsome, athletic, hip, smart, and quick-witted, and knew how to get along with adults – just an all-around “I wanna be that guy” kind of kid. So he was a kind of superstar, and exceptions were made for him.
Also, there were a (very) few white millkids who hung around with the white preppies from the brick house neighborhoods. They were called “goody goodies” by the other kids from their areas and jeered at and disliked in the same way that the “oreos” were by many of the blacks.
So I don’t think it has anything to do with “African American culture”. It’s human nature. If there’s a group that’s perceived as being more priveleged than yours, anyone in your group who seems to be trying to join that group becomes an outcast among his former peers. Because it’s an indirect insult. The home group feels that the cross-over is saying they’re not good enough for him.
FWIW.
But not from kneejerking so hard that you rattle your brains.
Translation: male youth culture in certain black communities does not value education enough.
Moreoever, your reading skills leave a lot to be desired I’m afraid. How about the study which showed that sports and music are viewed as more promising avenues of upward mobility than education? Does this show that education is valued highly enough? How about the fact that the second of three cites I linked to talked about a lack of role models? Or the presentation of sucessful blacks in the media which informs children’s choices? Or talking about an “anti-achievement ethic”?
It’d help if, ya know, you read the damn cite before trying to talk about it. Obviously the problem is not just peer pressure, according to black scholars at least. So you can try to paint me as a racist, but what will you say about them and their findings?
God you’re a moron. I pointed out how there isn’t a high value placed on education in a certain culture. (eg. black male youth culture). And I cited where scholars and researchers, who are black, discuss factors in society and culture which make education seem less valuable. Ignore those all you want.
No no. I think what you meant to say was “I’m out of this thread, and I’m an idiot.”
I still don’t understand why blacks are being singled out over this. Seems to me there’s an anti-academic ethos in many American cultures, including white cultures. Ditto for these other problems – glorification of sports/entertainment figures in the media, and lack of adult male role models in the home.
I’m sure you could also discuss white cultures… but look at the research I posted. There is a significant dispairty in the black community between black girls, and black boys. Numerous studies have confirmed this.
I’d also point out that there is still racism, and blacks do still need to overcome adversity. The best way to do so is through education. It’s not as important for someone already in the dominant culture, although of course it’s still important.
So to get back to the OP and Cosby’s point: the civil rights movement fought to have equal acess to education, amongst other things. Young black males are more likely to have problems in school for a variety of reasons, ranging from teachers (who are often black) who don’t have faith in them, to a youth culture which does not value education enough.
FinnAgain: I don’t think that cites are out of place here. I was just saying that it could very easily be acknowledged that cites for that particular piece of information, “whether or not people were hurt by Jayson Blair overall”, would be rather hard to come by. Being that this forum is a bunch of armchair philosophers for the most part anyway, I think a little bit of understanding of that would go a long way. I think you posted a lot of interesting stuff in your cites, and your cites were very valuable to this thread. Addressing that brickbacon was stating his opinion as fact because it is shared by many other people, is valid, but to keep going ‘cite, cite, cite’ gets extremely irritating, just acknowledge that you aren’t gonna get a cite, be understanding about why that cite isn’t forthcoming, and maybe try to come to mutual understanding rather than trying to ‘win’.
I don’t think you’re out of line in this thread, but you have been something of a prick about it.
IMO why I don’t like race arguments is that it inevitably becomes a method for people to toss their rage back and forth, and has little to do with whether or not they actually legitimately are racist or not. To me, racism is so entrenched now that everyone is trying to defend themselves FROM racism, more than they are actually racist.
And to the rest of you, saying, “white people do this…”, is incredibly racist and offensive btw. I agree that comparing asian immigrants to the descendants of black slaves is idiotic at best.
Let’s just hope that in the next genocide they go for the ethnograhers first. I am so sick of the fucking race debate. Dominicans are they black or hispanic? what about Chinese Cubans? What race are they? Weren’t the Irish treated like ‘niggers’ 150 years ago in this country? There is just no such thing as a monolithic race, the very concept is a mental disorder that most of us share.
Erek
:headdesk:
If it can’t be proven, then it shouldn’t be presented as fact!
A cite isn’t forthcoming because his position is full of shit.
And no, I’m not going to stop pointing that out until he retracts his (unproven!) assertions.
Fair enough. You see me as you want, I see you being a lazy anti-intellectual anti-scientific fluffy bunny who thinks that demands for proof are somehow wrong.
Why, exactly? Or is this the “if you disagree with me you’re stooopit!” defense, again?
Is it not valid to state that varying ‘groups’ have entered this country with little to no social status and gained social power via education? Or are we not allowed to discuss this fundamental dynamic now out of some pc bullshit?
In response to the OP:
I’m a middle class white kid, too, so I’ll try to be careful where I step here, but I do feel compelled to say a few things.
I recognize the situation you describe-- the handful of black kids in my AP classes stood out from the other black kids at school. They tended to hang out with white kids MUCH more than other black kids. Here in college, I'm friends with a group of freshmen, all of whom are white except for one. He is frequently teased for 'not really being black.'
I believe that blacks and whites often do NOT have the same opportunities in this country today. African-Americans may no longer be legally enslaved, but they are still oppressed in many ways.
In reference to the 'rap culture' of today that I heard someone say something along these lines yesterday: "Do you think it's only black kids buying these CDs? And who do you think is producing the music? and videos? that's right, white people. It's not a black people problem, it's a social problem."
And to echo **gigi**, I, too would urge you to consider your use of the word 'normal' in relation to speech and behavior. You could think of it in terms of *standard* when it comes to speech-- such as, why don't some black people speak *standard *English? Think, too, about what makes you think of 'normal clothing' as normal, etc.I think the main difference is the misconception that blacks are at a disadvantage simply for being black. While a white kid could slack off and just be a slacker (since he was not assumed to be from an underpriveledged group), when a black kid slacks off (for whatever reason) he is seen as slapping the face of all the civil rights advocates who have fought so that he may start from equal footing as the white kid.
Nobody had to fight for the white kid to get to be equal with anybody, he can blow it all off and just be a loser, but the black community has had to fight for decades just to get on even ground. When their youth blow it off it is seen as more of a crime given the struggles others have put forth just for them to have the opportunity.
And for intelligent black kids to underachieve simply because it’s not “cool” to excel academically is just such a waste, both of their lives and the lives of those who have fought on their behalf.
I hope this didn’t come off as condescending, and no I don’t have a cite for every word here. This is just how it’s been explained to me by the parents (coworkers) of black kids here.
** Nobody had to fight for the white kid to get to be equal with anybody, he can blow it all off and just be a loser, but the black community has had to fight for decades just to get on even ground. When their youth blow it off it is seen as more of a crime given the struggles others have put forth just for them to have the opportunity.**
Let’s ignore for the moment that all white people aren’t created equal. A big part of the Civil Rights movement was equality. That cuts in all directions…a black person shouldn’t have to be credit to his race anymore and I find threads like this a throwback to that mindset.
There’s a line in Guess Who’s Coming To Dinner and I’m going by memory, in which Syndey’s “father”, is telling Sydney that he “owes” him, and Syndey says, “No I don’t, you did what you were supposed to do, but now it OUR time.” “Get off our backs…man”.
Sure, I think African-Americans still don’t get as much slack as they should, when things go wrong; but part of being equal also means being allowed to have a certain amount of screw-ups, that look like you. If we would stop making this a “black” problem and just a “slacker” problem, we would all be alot better off.
And I’ll add, this it’s not uncommon for white people to accuse blacks who speak, dress and behave “normal” of acting white as well…this cut boths ways.
[respect knuckles]tap[/respect knuckles]
Interesting. Perhaps these quote will make things clearer.
Nobody had to fight to integrate white kids into my school…they were already there. Nobody had to fight to allow white kids to be admitted to U of Alabama.
All I was trying to say, if race or civil rights didn’t matter, then why were people fighting for them? Why was it important to integrate black kids into white schools if it didn’t matter?
It WAS important, and it DID matter. At least the people who fought so hard for integration and civil rights THOUGHT it did. For (some) black kids to just disown all that work and fight that was done on their behalf just breaks the hearts of a lot of people who had hoped that their legacy would be to achieve greatness instead of throw it away lest they appear to not be cool.
Do you think Martin Luther King Jr. would be proud of kids who, instead of achieving excellence through education, decided that getting good grades made them look weak to their peers? I can’t believe for a second that he would be anything but mortified. In the documentary “When We Were Kings”, Mohammed Ali gives a little speech aimed towards black youth, beseeching them to stay in school (ostensibly to get an education) and stay away from drugs. Do you think Ali would approve of the mindset that good grades=loser?
White kids are not all equal, but there was nowhere near the struggle for white equality with white as there was black equality with white. It’s the white kids game to lose, the black kids to win. But to win, you have to play the game, and this seems to be the sticking point: If you play this game, you are selling out to whitey. And that’s a shame.
You’ve missed the point js.
There was a reason that I put the word group into soft quotes in the first quote of mine.
The fact of the matter remains: Education is the best method for individuals to gain social power. As such, one can point to strategies (eg. education) which work.
Why?
The black academicians I’ve cited say it’s a black problem.
Statistics say that it’s a problem which is pronounced in young black males. Even if we recast this as a slacker problem, then why are so many young black men becoming slackers?
The cites I’ve provided, and I can add more, all say that there is something in the operational dynamic of a certain culture. This does not mean that all people who happen to be black follow these trends, or that the same forces converge and effect all people who are black in the same way. But this does mean that there are certain social factors which play a role in certain individuals’ realities.
And just because I’ve got a few more words on this topic js, it’s somewhat less than cool to take off topic and out of context quotes of mine and attempt to set up an analogy in a situation which is totally different. In specific, the quote of mine you used to start your post refers to ‘groups’ having social status. Do you deny that society grants ‘groups’ social status?
One does not need to assume that a ‘group’ is real in order to realize that people will act as if it is. One also does not need to assume that a ‘group’ is real in order to realize that individuals will be affected by the perceptions and attitudes of other people who lump them into a group.
Next time, please address the subject matter rather than sniping with out of context quotes.
C’mon man. There were schools and communities that didn’t let Jews in, or the Irish or the Italians. Did we need armed troops, no…but let’s not gloss over that lots of people got the short end of stick here…the difference is of course, society eventually let them have a shot at the long end…but that’s a different thread.
I don’t know where you guys get this “selling out to whitey” stereotype from, I would imagine the same source that you hold up as “proof” of anti-education. This is not unique to African-Americans, from Apples, to Bananas, to Oreos and everything in between, there’s always been a certain segment of a group that goes against the mainstream. That is normal…what isn’t normal is the constant mantra that African-Americans must be more than human or because little Timmy blows off school he’s a race-traitor and his spiting on MLK’s grave.
Stop expecting African-Americans to be better or worst than the rest of society. You and the others do a great disservice to the majority of African-Americans to thrive and contribute to this country, by using a minority within a minority to pain a picture that anti-education is somehow rampant within the community.
I would pointing out that they’re or YOU are calling them Blackacademicians, as opposed to being just academicians, might be heads up where their focus lies. That’s not a bad thing, but If I decide to study why girls do poorly in mathematics, you might question my moviation if I said it was FEMALE problem, as opposed to a societial one.
Again I would imagine I could go to Northern Ireland and come up with a similar focus or the Koreans in Japan or whenever a minority group is. Humans react pretty much the same way, in the same environment. Go back 70 years and you’ll find the same problem within the Irish community in New York. The problem is the same…the difference is, how long it lasts.
Actually, that seems to be the point of the scholarly journals I’ve cited. Not that they’re expected to do better or worse, but when young black males are consistently performing at a lower level than they’re capable, and there are cultural forces at work, than those forces should be analyzed. One expects there to be random distribution, but there is not. And, again, it’s black scholars who are making this point. Are they doing themselves a disservice? If black scholars and members of the community discuss social factors, should we ignore them?
It’s valid to point out that they’re black academicians in order to deflect cries of racism.
It’s also valid because there is a cultural dynamic at work. As for your example, there’s already a wealth of data on the female* segment of our population and how they’re affected by society.
Just to make this crystal clear, there’s nothing inherent in being black that causes this. There is, according to the research, something inherent in the societal forces to which black male children in speicific are subjected which are causing this phenomena.
Well, we can imagine it, but is it true? I’ve not done the research, but is there data to support the hypothesis that social factors contributed to a specific segment of Irish imigrants selling themselves short?