How about you give me the benefit of the doubt, look for some context and if possible, ask me? If I’m flying the flag at a high school football game and my team is called “the Rebels” I’m probably not making a statement on race relations. If I’ve got a sticker on my pickup truck next to one that says “Southern by the grace of God” (and I should say, I’d rather choke on a mess of greens than actually do either of these things… they are examples only) I’ve more than likely got nothing against black folks. As I’ve already stated, symbols… especially really well known ones convey a wide variety of meanings… I don’t see why we should plunge to the worst as a given.
I have seen no one suggest otherwise; in fact, it’s been specifically discussed earlier in this thread and I don’t think any of the Yanks argued it. Slavery was an ugly thing, and it was common in much of the U.S. in the earlier years.
But seceding from the nation to protect slavery - when finally Americans began to wake up and admit that it was a dreadful thing - was a terrible thing to do. And using a symbol of that war, that war over slavery, and claiming it’s your “heritage”, is disgusting. Slavery is the great black mark on the history of America - and I’m not going to apologize for wondering what the real motives are for waving around what ultimately is a symbol of slavery.
I disagree… I could fly a dozen versions of the fylflot and I don’t think they’d be confused with the flag of nazi germany… which is what we’re talking about here. The nazi flag does indeed = Nazi… but a curved armed sunwheel from native american symbology would be silly to mistake as such. It’s about context.
Christ, I really don’t care one way or the other about the Rebel flag, I’m just tired of nitwits like Der Trihs painting me and my ancestors as evil racist bastards because we live(d) in the (Old) South. The Rebel flag, or whatever you call it, is largely irrelevant to me, as I’ve never seen one in the possession of any of my family members or friends and as such didn’t grow up revering it like others I suppose have. Indeed, on the way back from Gulf Shores this past Memorial Day weekend, we all rolled our eyes at the giant Stars n’ Bars the Sons of Confederate Veterans is flying along I-65. Anywho, back on topic, screw you again Der Trihs.
Because most racists are cowards and won’t admit it, so they hide because symbols that say everything that would like say but are too afraid to do so.
So if I were to ask you your intention, I wouldn’t expect you to say anything except “I’m just showing my Southern pride.” That could mean anything from literally showing your Southern pride and heritage, to implicitly giving a nod to the Southern “way of life” that was the basis for the succession.
I could you give the benefit of the doubt, sure, but that’s kind of hard to do when the flag has been adopted by folks that would rather see me and my skin-folk dead than live next door to me. So whenever I see someone flying that flag, I put a lot of distance between me and them.
Maybe. Maybe not. I’m sure the KKK sees themselves as “rebels”, too.
A symbol is just a symbol. To mourn the loss of a flag that has come to represent such ugliness strikes me as waste of emotional energy. I don’t think it will ever be reclaimed and reconditioned into something benevolent and nonideological, so it’s more practical to either find other symbols or keep the current one and deal with whatever comes your way.
Because for one thing, it’s not my responsibility to determine if you’re using a symbol that has explicitly racist meanings in a non-racist way. It’s like you’re saying, “I hate black people,” but expecting everyone to just understand that by “black,” you don’t mean race, but are using the word metaphorically to describe evil people. Sorry, it doesn’t work like that. Message received is message communicated, and if you’re using a symbol that is widely understood to have a racist meaning, then that racist meaning is what’s going to be communicated.
The reason we “plunge to the worst” meaning with symbols is, as much as anything, self-protection. If I were black, and I see a guy sporting the Stars ‘n’ Bars, you think I’m going to go up and ask him if he’s a racist? Fuck no, I’m going to play it safe, assume the worst about you, and stay the fuck away from you, because “giving you the benefit of the doubt” isn’t worth getting a beating if it turns out I’m wrong.
And, really, even if I assume the very best possible meaning for someone showing that flag, that meaning is still, “I’m not a racist, I’m just a stubborn jackass who uses a symbol that I know is viewed as emblematic of centuries of the very worst sort of brutality, inhumanity, murder, and rape, and is going to lead to the vast majority of people viewing me as a racist anyway, but I don’t care because I’m too tangled up in an idiotic notion of regional pride to give a shit what anyone else thinks of me.” Which, you know, is marginally better than a simple, “White Power!” bumpersticker, but not by a whole hell of a lot.
So, you can’t be bothered to think about the context and use of a symbol being used before you leap to some predetermined conclusion. Hmmm I call that bigotry. If I said that I automatically assumed that anybody using a flag with the crescent and star on it is an islamic terrorist and that I stay the fuck away from them for my own self preservation… I would rightly be called a disgusting bigot. I’m not saying that the stars and bars is on par with the acknowledged symbol of a major world religion but I think you’re being a bit ridiculous and blind by also not acknowledging that the confederate flag has some well known alternative meanings as well as it’s disreputable ones. Christ, I can go tune into CMT and watch the Dukes of Hazard right now… driven I suppose by unapologetic Duke-boy klansmen. The stars and bars has been a collegiate symbol, a portion of various southern state flags, a goofy cultural icon plastered on t-shirts and mugs, an outlaw biker/country music rally and the somber penant gracing many war cemetaries across the south. It has also been used as a disgusting emblem of the worst kind of white supremacy and I resent that (I also resent them having, you know… air to breathe… but…). You can call me stubborn and a jackass… you’ll forgive me if I don’t place much value on your assumptions about me based on the evidence presented.
No, it’s not. It’s the first official flag of the Confederacy.
Actually, it was a naval jack (scroll down)
the battle flag was square
And if someone calls it the southern cross , he gets a cyber kick to the nuts.
For Pete’s sake, if you’re gonna carry on like you know what you’re talkiing about (I’m looking at you lokij ), at least know what you’re talking about
You’ve mastered the quote function, but I’m not sure if you read the post you quoted. He’s overreacting if he avoids everybody who uses that flag. Can you really blame people for being mistrustful? Defiance is obviously a factor in the flag’s adoption and use as a symbol of ‘Southern pride,’ so what the fuck can you expect?
My apologies. I thought the phrase “Stars and Bars” was used in reference to the Confederate Navy Jack. I am aware of the difference between them.
No worries, you’re the least offending poster in this thread WRT flag nomenclature, just the one I replied to. FWIW, the site I link has a ton of erros. I linked it for the pictures without reading for content. For example, it calls the battle flag (the square) the best known, when clearly that dubious honor goes to the jack (the rectangle).
As it stands, lokij, oakminster et al. should be pleased to know that they can waive the “stars and bars” freely and not be seen as racist. most folks won’t even know what they’re flying.
I apologise for my misuse of terms. I stand corrected. I believe everybody understood which flag I was speaking of however but I’m glad you pointed out my errors. The actual “Stars and Bars” would be a prime example of an actual flag adopted by the confederate government that if flown today wouldn’t get a second look.
I might add too, I would be personally deeply suspicious of anybody that Was flying the “stars and bars”… much more so than some random guy with a naval jack sticker on his SUV. For one to fly that flag they would have had to have researched it’s history, chose that flag for it’s relative anonymity, sought it out despite it’s probable rarity and have a reason to wish to fly the actual first flag of the confederate state. Again though, context would matter… if it was flying at a re-inactment… well, no harm… but over somebody’s house?I would be far more suspicious of that, personally.
Last summer, I took my son on a camping trip for Scouting to Gettysburg. He was 8 that summer. At the end of the trip, he asked me to take him shopping at a souvenir store. He asked to by a tiny action figure called ‘Billy Yank’. I asked him if he wanted the other one, named ‘Johnny Reb’. He said “No, Daddy, I only want the good guys.”
I stopped him right there and said “Look…there Were no ‘Bad Guys’ because they were all Americans and all of them fought for what they believed in. The reason why Gettysburg is Important isn’t because one side won or lost. It wasn’t about that. It was about 3 days where so many people died that the carnage was Unimaginable. It was about how every building in 3 square miles had to be converted to makeshift hospitals. It was about how wrist-diameter holes had to be drilled in the corners of the floors of the hospital rooms, just to drain blood and keep it from becoming more than ankle deep. It was about a waste and a loss of a Generation of Americans…in only 3 days. We are here at Gettysburg today to pay our respects to the dead and to make sure we never forget the hard lessons learned… that carnage like this should never again take place between brothers on American soil.”
The shop keeper smiled. (she knew that I Got It) Elsewhere in the shop, another shopper stared at me, threw her nose in the air, turned her back to me, and left with a ‘Harrumph’ and something about ‘not supporting the troops’. After she left, I apologized to the shopkeeper for costing her the sale. She replied that it was OK…and that she had nuts like the one who stormed out in her store all the time.
I payed for both figures…and a brass compass for something extra for my son, and we left.
This year, our Pack was scheduled to go to Antietam for a camping trip. It WAS scheduled to be from June 9th through the 11th. We had to cancel because some damn ignorant Hate Group known as the KKK was holding a rally there. Sure, we could have gone…but how much fun would it be, having to post fathers as guards in shifts at the campsite all night? Some of our Pack is Black, some are Filipino, and All are Catholic. Worse, we’d be exposing impressionable kids to the Hate-Speech of Gordon Young. We have since rescheduled to a date later this summer and I look forward to seeing the discovery another chapter of American History through my son’s eyes then.
Because there’s very, very few contexts in which the Confederate flag is unambigously not a racist symbol. And none of the contexts you have provided have done so.
Sounds like you need to invest in a better dictionary, then.
No, probably just ignorant, so long as you were making it clear that you didn’t have a problem with all Muslims. Just as most people in this thread (and most people who object to the Confederate flag) don’t have a problem with all Southerners. But ignorant would fit, because you don’t actually understand the meaning or history of the star and crescent: it’s not a universal symbol of Islam, for one thing. As a symbol, it predates Islam by several centuries, and it’s most prominent use in the modern world was as the official flag of the Ottoman Empire. In addition, the star and crescent does not have the direct association with the worst excesses of Islam, as the Naval Jack does with the worst excesses of American racism. It’s not tied to one specific period of history or one specific divisive social issue the same way that the Naval Jack are. Just because they’re both symbols, doesn’t mean you can get a meaningul comparison from them.
I’m not saying those other meanings don’t exsist. I’m saying it’s ridiculous to expect everyone else to overlook the most common, and most despicable, meaning that is associated with that symbol. If you’re displaying it, you don’t get to communicate only the meaning you want it to convey just by wishing real hard. It’s going to communicate the negative message wether you want to or not, because that’s what the flag means to the vast majority of people who are familiar with it. You cannot disassociate the two meanings without a substantial level of additional disambiguation, so much as to render the whole point of using the flag moot. It’s a tainted, broken symbol, and you’re not going to be able to reclaim it. And, at its heart, it’s not worth reclaiming. You’re not going to be able to just erase more than a century of association between that symbol and the most violent, virulent, deadly form of racism yet seen on this continent. As stongly as that flag means, “I love the South,” to you, there are millions of people for whom it means, “My granddad used to be property,” and good luck trying to tell them to feel different. Be proud of being from the South, if its that important to you. Just find another way of expressing it, because that symbol does not express the meaning you want it to express.
Wish I’d thought of that myself. Sure, it works as a non-racist symbol in Dukes of Hazard, because the Duke of Hazard exsists in a parrallel-television-world small town in the deep South where there’s not a single black person in a hundred mile radius. It works on that show as a non-racist symbol because on that show, there aren’t any other races but white folk. You’ve finally found your non-racist context for that flag, and it’s a complete fantasy.
I don’t think you can necessarily say that all of those “positive” associations are entirely seperate from that last association. Certainly, its use in state flags is reason enough to raise an eyebrow at it.
Well, I’d expect you to quibble over “jackass,” but I don’t think there’s much room to debate over “stubborn.”
So, how is your attitude expressed here any better than my attitude towards the Naval Jack? Aren’t you assuming far more about that person’s attitude than I am, considering that the original Stars and Bars does not have the connotation of being used by one of the most dangerous and pervasive terrorist organizations in history? Hell, if I saw that flag (and had any idea what it was) I’d assume that it was someone who wanted to express pride in their culture without the racist overtones of the Naval Jack.
Assuming you’re talking about the Naval Jack/Battle Flag and not the true “Stars and Bars,” then you might want to look at when in each state’s history it was incorporated into the state’s flag and what the motive for incorporating this symbol might have been. In Georgia for example, this flag was adopted in 1956 – what else was going on in the South back then? Hmmmmm?
The trouble is that many of the Americans were traitors who had decided to secede from their country in order to found a union where the practice of slavery might be protected. I don’t blame the individual soldiers - who, as with most soldiers (and certainly those on both sides of the conflict), were dumb kids doing what they thought was right. But to claim that one side was not “bad” is ridiculous moral relativism and no matter how many southerners preach it, I truly hope that that viewpoint doesn’t spread.
In their own words, those in gray weren’t Americans; that was the proximate cause of the war, in fact, so it seems incorrect to me to call them that.
Incidentally, it seems a bit odd to me to celebrate the most horrible chapter in American history as so many people seem wont to do. I guess maybe I’ll try to get in on the Concentration Camp reenactment scene.
That sounds like a fun toy.
Why do you think I bought him the compass? Sure, it can be used for camping, but its also a metaphorical compass for him to check his bearings against later in life. Someday, after I’m gone, I want him to ask “Why did Dad buy me a compass?” If I’ve taught him right, He’ll get it, and then say, “Oh…right. That’s why.”
I don’t want to be a Debbie Downer or nothing… but come on!
Since when did believing in something A) justify fighting and B) preclude a cause from being considered bad?
The Nazis believed in their cause, too. Believed it so much that they put it into action. Guess that means that there were no bad guys in WWII, right?
I hope your son realizes that the Confederates were indeed very much in the wrong and thus, in little boy-speak, were the “bad guys”. Not because they chose to break from the Union. But because of the reason they chose to break from the Union.
And just in case anyone thinks I’m painting the Union as a noble saint of holy goodness, I’m not saying that at all. The Union was only the “good guy” relative to their opposition, who–on the continuum of right and wrong–was decidedly closer to wrong than they were.