In which I ruminate on the endemic nature of racism, and ponder why some can't see it

Great Debates
1

After jumping in yet another race-related thread (against my better judgment), I’m hoping to have a conversation - not a debate, God, I’m so sick of debates on this topic - about racism.

For all of the wonderful things about the SDMB that I enjoy, I resolutely avoid - well, as much as I can - discussing racism. Why? Well, because I have some unwavering beliefs that seem to be always challenged whenever the topic comes up.

First, I believe that it is in our very nature as humans - at least this iteration we’ve seen for the past several thousand years - to notice difference. Difference in height, shape, skin color, eye color, etc. etc. We also have a difficult time with difference. While our intellectual brains seem to understand and appreciate how difference helps and accentuates our world, our animal brains seeks out the familiar and suspects the unfamiliar. I mean, in an animal sense, this seems to be a good trait to a degree. When wandering around in caveman times, it was probably good to recognize and rally around those like you for protection, help with the hunt, etc.

My experience with kids suggests this is the case. While they are very concerned about how nice, or mean, people are, they also are quick to describe people in the most obvious phenotypical descriptors: he’s White, he’s Asian, he’s tall, he’s skinny, etc. Later on we learn this “it’s not polite to notice race, or physical size” crap. (Once on my college campus, I was seeking out an administrator to arrange an interview for an internship. I encountered three White people who tried to help me find this woman, whom I’d never met and had only had contact with via e-mail. I had all of these great descriptions of her clothing, her height, even where she was last seen - but the only person who thought to tell me that she was Black was an Asian work-study student. Well, of course I found her in two seconds. The campus isn’t that diverse!)

So - we naturally notice difference, and are at least - curious? unsure? about those who differ from us (significantly) in phenotype. We all have varying degrees of comfort about negotiating those differences - on one extreme end, some people actually find it fun and enriching to learn about others who are different and even go as far to see the common ground we share on some level, while others on the polar end of the spectrum are frightened and threatened by difference to the point they will avoid or eradicate it at all costs. Most people are in-between, I suspect.

To take the example of the United States - which I do because I am an American, and it’s the country I’m most familiar with - we have a historical record flavored with racism. From the very idea that one could own land occupied by others without engaging in compensation, to Manifest Destiny, to slavery, to various exclusion acts versus virtually every recognizable immigrant group to this nation, we’ve done it here. That’s not to say that it hasn’t been done everywhere else. The second part of this is that this nation, in my opinion, never had a sustained period of time when the nation mood was reflective of these actions, and how certain groups of people were unjustly treated. The most extreme examples of racism and prejudice, of course, are reviled in polite society, but I think this means that the stuff in the middle is never addressed.

Thus we have a divide in this country, where sizable numbers of the citizenry believe that a person’s social location, public perception, are wholly independent of race, class, gender, ethnicity, and so forth - and folks like me who think it’s impossible to consider that the way we perceive a person is greatly based on those very things.

I’m not sure if I’m being clear, but in essence, what I’m saying is: I don’t understand how anyone who has lived in the United States during the time that I have, at least, can think that racism doesn’t exist, and affects people in a very real way on a daily basis. Not just people of color, but also White people. Do we overcompensate or excuse certain behaviors of some people because of their race, or conversely discriminate and harshly condemn others for the same reasons?

Then there’s the predictable reaction, which I am pretty sick of hearing, to be perfectly honest, that yes, racism exists, but “in this specific instance” it’s virtually irrelevant. While I can accept that for an individual, it is possible that one identifies as an accepter and appreciater of difference, I think it’s logical to assume that the 300 million others in this country may not quite be at that level.

Can someone help me understand the urge to immediately dismiss racism as an explanation - not the sole one, or perhaps in one’s mind, the major one - for negative societal outcomes? What is the harm in understanding, “Yes, being prejudged and penalized, however slightly, based on one’s skin color, accent, physical features, or parentage, is a considerable barrier to success and happiness?”

The second part, of course, is the fact that a) virtually all people have barriers to success and happiness, and b) despite said barriers, many people do achieve success and happiness. But I don’t see how sincerely acknowledging the barriers to people reaching their full potential negates points a) and b).

I’m rambling a bit because it’s late, but I think this nation needs to reflect on our history and take a proactive step if we expect to move forward dealing with difference as the country becomes more diverse by the minute…

Hope I haven’t turned some of you off from responding with the long rant. I could cite academic texts all day to argue my perspective, but at some level, I just want to know what people think about this.

2

I’ll bite, to a limited extent:

Just exactly what innovative, proactive step(s) do you suggest would eliminate perceptions such as you’ve outlined above? If there is some way to make all humans look at all other humans and see “human” instead of white, black, asian, latino, tall, short, ugly, hot, fat or skinny, you should enlighten us at once!

3

I know what you’re saying, and I generally agree with you. Racism certainly does still exist, and it may never be eradicated.

There’s a little part of my monkey brain that sees three young black men in hooded sweatshirts walking down the street after dark and gets afraid. Do I start screaming and call the police or whip out my mace? No. But I do get that ick feeling in my stomach and stand up straighter and walk a little more strongly to compensate. In some situations, I’d be castigated for admiting to that predjudice. (Then again, if I was attacked, I’d be berated for walking in “the wrong neighborhood” after dark. Ya can’t win.) And no, I’m not similarly frightened by three young white men, and yes, I do get intellectually that (around here, anyway), there’s probably equal actual risk from both groups. It’s irrational, and not something I’m proud of. That’s part of what makes me think it’s inherent.

So that’s a clear case of prejudice, and we can argue 'till the cows come home whether it’s biologically wired, learned in childhood, or something else.

OTOH, “some of my best friends are black”, and I’ve dated nearly an equal number of black men and white men. I have no problem working with or socializing with people outside my race. My kids have black and white (and others) friends, I moved to this area from a lily-white town specifically because I wanted to raise my kids around diversity - racial, gender and worldview.

So am I a racist? Or am I person who occasionally has a very situation specific racist reaction? I like to think the later. I’ve absorbed the idea that I shouldn’t have feelings or perform actions based soley on race, and so I feel ashamed of that reaction, but it still happens. Saying to myself “Stop thinking like that, you’re being racist!” doesn’t help. (And I do say it to myself, every time.)

I think that there’s a lot of times when racism is accused what it’s not warranted. It’s an easy accusation to make, and a very hard one to defend. Was that person passed over for a promotion because he’s black or because the white person had more continuing eduacation credits? Was that kid beat up because he was Mexican or because someone wanted his sneakers? Was Omarosa eliminated because she was black or because she was a bitch?

Because it’s bad to be a racist in our current culture, and because I think there are people out there who aren’t always being racist, like me, I think we should try to give folks the benefit of the doubt until all the data is in. We can look for and accept other reasons people give for their actions, and not assume that they are always racially motivated. Are they sometimes? Sure. Are they always? I don’t think so.

4

So, you are admitting that you are a racist? Mighty open of you.

If you are going to define racism as any judgement made based on skin color, then you are saying that every human on earth is racist. That robs the word of all of its meaning.

5

I’ll admit, I don’t think about racism all that often. This is partly because, as a white guy, living and working where whites are the majority, I’m seldom directly affected by racism. And it’s partly because racism—treating people differently, or expecting different things of them, based on their “race” or skin color—just doesn’t make rational sense. It makes no more sense than treating people differently based on their hair color or height or eye color or something.

I’m not saying I have no racism in me, but at the conscious, rational level, I know racism is wrong, it’s nonsense, and it shouldn’t affect my behavior. And I think many people are like me. And because it would never occur to us to “be racist,” we don’t expect others to be. We find it hard to believe, or remember, that racism even exists, because it just doesn’t make sense.

And yet, every so often I hear of something that reminds me that there really are enough truly racist people around that it remains a real problem—stories of black people being harassed by policemen or store managers or whoever, for no other reason than that they’re black, for instance.

6

What makes you think all humans use race to form judgements about people?

And secondly, even if all humans do judge people according to race, what all-important meaning do you think is lost by using “racism” to describe that behavior? I ask this because this is hardly the first time I’ve seen this particular sentiment expressed, and no one has really explained why the ubiquity of racial prejudice should determine what words we use to describe it.

7

They do, whether you want to admit it or not. These judgements can be either positive, neutral or negative. The key is whether you act on these judgements, or let them color a rational decision you have to make.

“Racism” in this country has the connotation of acting on these judgements, of behaving irrationally, of letting skin tone color, if you will, your decisions in matters where it is irrelevant, which is most of them.

8

This paragraph demonstrates eloquently what I tried to put into words in the Bonds thread, but gave up on. Thank you. Race probably plays into everything we do in some subtle, Freudian-unconscious way. But what I tried/wanted to argue in that thread was that it really wasn’t a big influence in the specific case we were discussing (as I see it), and we can say that maybe some sportswriter uses a word with a slightly different shade of meaning because it “sounds better” to them and under the surface it’s really because Bonds is black, or something; but if we were to define racism that way, everything we do would be racist and the word would have no meaning. That would be a travesty to, at the very least, the Jews in my family who were blacklisted in Hollywood in the 50s for being Jewish. And of course it would be a travesty to the slaves (black, Chinese, whomever), the Irish in the early 20th century, blacks during the segregation era, Hank Aaron, Jackie Robinson, etc. etc. etc…

9

Prejudice is prejudice whether you act on it or not. In practical terms, I agree that it makes no sense to worry about prejudice if it does not affect behavior. But if prejudice is pervasive and negative enough, it’s unrealistic to believe that it doesn’t translate into discrimination on a societal level. So I question the wisdom in only focusing on actions, when unconscious and conscious biases are what causes our actions in the first place.

Dismissing racial prejudice just because “everyone does it” also misses the point. It’s not wrong because only a few people do it; rather, it’s wrong because it has the potential to harm those who take the brunt of the prejudice. The meaning of “racism” is not lost when it is used to describe certain judgements based on race. If everyone in the world was fat, it would not be incorrect or imprecise to use the word “overweight” to describe them. The same follows for “racism”.

10

God what a tough one. Maybe we’ll get somewhere before it turns into a flamepit.

As Whynot says, I find the same lizard-brain level reactions some times. Why? I’m not a psychologist, but I’d guess that growing up in a white-as-white suburb, with all the underlying unspoken bigotries, has created some very deep seated biases.

So, yeah, I guess I’m racist to some extent. But as someone else pointed out also, the actions you take based on your feelings have a bearing on this too.

And that’s where as rational beings we have to put our hope. It’s in leaving behind the uncontrollable reactions like that long enough to make rational judgments based on the people you’re actually dealing with. And of course, familiarity. If you never have any experience with people, it’s easier to believe stereotypes. Fear of the unknown.

We’ve chosen to send our child to an urban public school, that’s abour 50% Hispanic, 20% causcasian, and 20% black. And he has learned, not colorblindness, but recognition that skin color is not a determiner of character. As with any child, he has kids he doesn’t like in school-but skin color has nothing to do with it. It’s gratifying to see the range of kids at his birthday parties. Hopefully, he will grow up and have less of that lizard-brain reaction than I do.

As city dwellers, we have daily interactions with a variety of people, and I’d like to believe that some of those older behaviors are being washed away. I have African-American clients, and often have meetings and presentations to nearly entirely black audiences, and have projects in African-American neighborhoods on a regular basis. At first, I felt somewhat nervous in these situations, but have been… well, growing out of it, for lack of a better term.

So I do believe that we can leave racism behind. But it will take thorough integration across the entire spectrum of society. Once you know him, It’s very hard to hate your neighbor because of his skin color. You can hate him because he won’t return your lawn mower though.

11

silenus, I do see myself fighting my hard-wired instincts and own ignorance and fear on a daily basis. For purposes of full disclosure, I am a Black male, and I actually do research around issues of race. Race is an important issue in my life partly by choice ini what I choose to do for a living and partly by how I experience the world.

Thudlow, thanks for your comments and your honesty.

WhyNot, I think it’s important to note that among my circle of Black friends, we’ve had conversations about men similar to those you’ve described - and also felt threatened, worried, scared, etc., sometimes irrationally, sometimes not. Part of this is a logic thing, right? Any group of adolescent men (seemingly) hiding their appearance would make me worry, but a group of White males appearing to me LDS missionaries would certainly make me feel less apprehensive (though I’d wonder what they were doing out late at night). And as someone who used to roam around in packs of other young men of color dressed in the styles of the day, I certainly can relate to the feeling of power one gets when you see people furtively glancing at you when you’re walking down the street (again, though, not late at night - my clique’s prowling was usually done in the local mall). There are times where that type of perceived intimidation is empowering, and times where it isn’t. In my life, it’s been far more problematic. I was recently in San Francisco with a number of men of color, all either holding Ph.Ds. or somewhere close to doing so - and realized some of the glances we got were not dissimilar to the ones I got walking in the mall with my boys at age 16.

fetus, that’s exactly my point. If you lived in this country when I did, saw the same TV, read the same media, went to the same schools, etc., you were exposed to racism. It’s like a virus in the air we breathe. Some folks have a strong resistance, some folks have a functional way of living with it, some folks have been chronically stricken with it, and some were quite infected and are pursuing treatment to better themselves. I see myself in all of these stages at times.

To bounce back to Bonds only temporarily, as an example - there’s already a Bonds thread in the Pit - we know of all of his bad deeds (domestic violence, shady dealings, possible steroids, etc.). Which came first - the bad rep, or his hostility to the media? It sort of reminds me of the way Jack Johnson was treated. Certainly not a Boy Scout, but also pursued and purposely scandalized because he was defiant in the way he confronted racism. We can see that today. How will history treat Bonds? In a hundred years, when it comes out that many of the golden boys of baseball were doing the same things he did (allegedly), will people be able to say, “Yes, at some level, Bonds was criticized differently than others due to his race? And he was a jerk, etc., but he might have been more of a jerk because of this?”

People of color in this country have two choices dealing with everyday racism - acknowledge it and move on, or sit there and figure out if the action experienced was truly an act of racism, or mere jerkitude on someone’s part. Conversely, everyone who reflects on their behavior might have to do the same sort of rationalization if they even see it. “Why did I ignore that customer? Am I racist, or was I just tired?” I’ve talked about being on the receiving end of racism, but when I mistakenly call an Asian student by the wrong name, I give myself grief because I really don’t think “they all look alike,” but I marvel how I can not make that mistake with the five White women in the class who are all blonde. Especially since the best friends of my family are Chinese/Trinidadian, I have many lifelong relationships with people of Asian descent, and I’ve spent considerable time in Asia.

I have thoughts about racism and the problematic nature of sports fans and Black athletes, but I might save that for another thread.

12

But is it realistic, or even possible, to think we can irradicate those unconscious, or even conscious biases? Take the “group of black guys walking after dark” example. I don’t know how to stop that scared feeling from coming up in the pit of my stomach. I’ve never been attacked by anyone of any race. I know intellectually that I have little real danger from them. (By the numbers, I’m probably more at risk by the Latino or white gangs around here.) Yet I still feel fear. I still change the way I walk. It might be a subtle change, but I’m sure it’s not unnoticed. I’m sure it’s enough of a change that they feel offended on some level. How do I change that feeling? Should I? I’m not stopping anyone from getting a job, a raise, a position at school, a house, a mate or anything else. Yet I feel like that tiny action isn’t making the world a better place, and that it’s thousands of those tiny actions like mine that lead those black men to feel white people hate them and won’t ever give them a fair chance.

13

Well, I think merely recognizing this as a racist feeling is a big start in the right direction. If more people could admit their own racial prejudices and their potential to discriminate–instead of denying, denying, denying it–then at least the idea that racism is responsible for certain things wouldn’t be treated like an absurd and extreme notion.

When it comes to the actual erradication of racist thought, time will probably take care of most of it, I think. But merely being conscious of our biases and being mindful of how wrong they are helps us to at least not spread these memes to the next generation.

14

The problem with giving a “racist” slant to your feelings is that it, in and of itself is racist. You are denying someone the chance to be judged an asshole on his own merits. A truly colorblind society would call an asshole an asshole no matter what color, sex, etc. they were. If you start second, third and fourth-guessing your motivations, you’ll end up biting yourself in the back. As WhyNot noted, you can’t get into people’s minds and thoughts. We are conditioned by our upbringing. Our parents have a greater impact than society at large does. And where is the cut-off between “racist” thought and personal preference? My own tastes in women mean that I find few black women deeply attractive. Does that mean I’m racist in this case? (Halle Berry as Storm being a noted exception! :smiley: ) Or is it just that I like pale-skinned blondes better? The line is a fluid one, and that is why I don’t like using the term “racist.” Its too…solid.

15

I just want to get something straight. If I say that my disdain for Barry Bonds has nothing to do with his being black, am I lying or deluding myself? Or is it possible that I just don’t like cheaters?

16

Do you have equal disdain for Mark McGwire, Sammy Sosa, Jason Giambi, Rafael Palmiero, Bret Boone, etc?

17

Really interesting thread, and so far nothing Pit-worthy, thankfully.

Philosophical question: a common saying is that somebody without fear is not as brave as somebody who is frightened out of his wits, yet goes on to perform admirably.

So, would the person berift of inherrent prejudice be less worthy than one who has inate racist biases, but overcomes them?

Or, how many angles can dance on the head of a pin? :smiley:

18

Angels, dammit!

19

How many of them own the single-season home run record, which was an improvement by IIRC 20 home runs in one season where the player bulked up by IIRC 30 pounds or so? How many of them are major-league assholes to the fans, the press, their teammates, etc.? Barry Bonds is different from all of those men for reasons other than race.

20

But that wasn’t the reason cited by bluethree. The reason was cheating. Without steroids, Bonds still would have been in the top 10 all time for homeruns. Those other guys (except possibly McGwire) never had a shot.