In which I ruminate on the endemic nature of racism, and ponder why some can't see it

Great Debates
21

[QUOTE=bluethree]
I just want to get something straight. If I say that my disdain for Barry Bonds has nothing to do with his being black, am I lying or deluding myself? Or is it possible that I just don’t like cheaters?
[/QUOTE]

How do you feel about Pete Rose?

Because if you come back and defend Pete Rose, who is a complete ass and who agreed to being kicked out of baseball forever for breaking the cardinal rule of baseball, then I’m going to think that there might be something more to your hatred of Bonds.

(Personally, I want Bonds to retire. I want Rose to get hit by a truck. :smiley: )

I think racism affects us in ways we don’t even recognize, and in ways we do. I have experienced the incredible stupidity of, say, being on an elevator alone when a black man gets on and then worrying that my normal elevator behavior of studied indifference might be perceived as racism, so then I try to make adjustments to make sure that I don’t come off as a racist when I’m trying too hard not to come off as a racist. It’s like something out of a bad movie.

22

[QUOTE=Lamar Mundane]
But that wasn’t the reason cited by bluethree. The reason was cheating. Without steroids, Bonds still would have been in the top 10 all time for homeruns. Those other guys (except possibly McGwire) never had a shot.
[/QUOTE]

I can tell you that when he was in San Diego, pre-steroids, he was one of the best power hitters to have come through our town in a while. He didn’t put up, well, Ruthian numbers, but he hit a pretty good number of 'em out of the park. I don’t think he’s in the top 10 now, is he?

Palmeiro and Giambi I can buy, maybe, but I think Sosa and McGwire would still have a pretty damn good shot, McGwire especially.

Anyway, I didn’t pay much attention to baseball in general or Bonds in particular before he bulked up, but the change in home runs even in 2001 was pretty dramatic from a statistical standpoint.

23

Lamar Mundane, I just figured out that your question was specifically related to bluethree stating that he really only hated Bonds for cheating. Well, I can’t speak to bluethree, although I now realize it looks like I was trying; I have lots of reasons for not liking Barry, which have already been stated in this thread.

I end up doing things like this all the time, too.

24

Well, I don’t follow baseball, so I can’t say much about the other gentlemen who have been mentioned, but I can absolutely state that I have much greater disdain for Enron’s Ken Lay than I do for Barry Bonds. And Ken Lay and I are the same color.

25

There is a fundamental problem with getting people to admit “pervasive racism”. It suggests, in a way, that there hasn’t been enormous progress in the last 50 years to eliminate racism.

If WhyNot is a “racist” for his late night nervousness, what is WhyNot’s (purely hypothetical) grandfather, who ran a Whites Only coffee shop? Or his (equally hypothetical) great grandfather who had a vast collection of white hoods and a sturdy lynchin’ rope? All three of them are “racists” but I think WhyNot would be embarassed and ashamed if this was his actual ancestry, and will naturally fight the idea that he and they should be described the same way.

It’s kind of disheartening to feel you’re a better person than your ancestors, but still get the same ugly label.

26

[QUOTE=Cheesesteak]
It’s kind of disheartening to feel you’re a better person than your ancestors, but still get the same ugly label.
[/QUOTE]

But if the label is accurate?

27

[QUOTE=Cheesesteak]
There is a fundamental problem with getting people to admit “pervasive racism”. It suggests, in a way, that there hasn’t been enormous progress in the last 50 years to eliminate racism.

If WhyNot is a “racist” for his late night nervousness, what is WhyNot’s (purely hypothetical) grandfather, who ran a Whites Only coffee shop? Or his (equally hypothetical) great grandfather who had a vast collection of white hoods and a sturdy lynchin’ rope? All three of them are “racists” but I think WhyNot would be embarassed and ashamed if this was his actual ancestry, and will naturally fight the idea that he and they should be described the same way.

It’s kind of disheartening to feel you’re a better person than your ancestors, but still get the same ugly label.
[/QUOTE]

Yes, but SHE (no prob. I get gender confused all the time here) often wonders which is worse. Lynchings suck, but they’re blatant, identifiable and easy to fight or legislate against. I wonder if now we’ve gotten to the really hard part of fighting racism - the hearts and minds and perhaps even biology.*

No, I don’t think I’m as bad as those hypothetical relatives. (My real relatives were gettin’ the hell out of Germany after WWI, so they may or may not have been as bad as my new hypothetical ones!) But “not as bad” doesn’t mean “entirely good.”

*10 years ago, I wouldn’t have even considered for a moment that some form of color-preference or “racism” was hard-wired. But after having kids and watching them grow, I’m not so sure. Even my little baby stares differently at black babies. Toddlers will all play next to each other without much problem, but they’re not really playing with each other, black or white. By pre-school they start to self-segregate. What is up with that? It’s as odd to me as the reported shunning of all-black or all-white wolves.

28

[QUOTE=jsgoddess]
I have experienced the incredible stupidity of, say, being on an elevator alone when a black man gets on and then worrying that my normal elevator behavior of studied indifference might be perceived as racism, so then I try to make adjustments to make sure that I don’t come off as a racist when I’m trying too hard not to come off as a racist. It’s like something out of a bad movie.
[/QUOTE]

Oh, and I add to that a resentment of being made to feel as if I might be racist, and have to enact this lil charade, when all I want is to get to the 5th floor or whatever!

What about feeling trapped? Like someone of another race does something that you don’t appreciate (a co-worker or similiar), but then you feel like you can’t say anything, because they might attribute your dislike/disapproval to racism?

Hell, I was accused of racism by a family of a pt (black); I am white. Thank God my manager at that time was also black and she basically told this family that they were off base to accuse me of that. How could I defend myself against such a charge? Come out with the old chestnut of some of my best friends are black? There is no way out of that accusation–it seems that the accusation alone is enough to damn anyone.

I am much like WhyNot -except that I only get that feeling in certain neighborhoods or at the mall on a Saturday noc. I put it down to safety concerns-very pragmatic. I don’t just fear the black teens–I “fear” teens in packs, period.

but, put me on a Metra train, travelling alone and I will look at any male in the way she described. Maybe not so much the trench-coated exec, but anyone else. Perhaps that has more to do with the fears women have being out late, alone. Sorry, to stray OT.
I tend to be idealistic and like to think I am liberal, but where does one draw the line? I loathe rap music and its culture-am I racist? Some of the aides at work have hinted as much. Why do I have to embrace an entire culture and even learn their language in order to be considered non-racist? I have no interest in Cinco de Mayo OR St Patrick’s Day (I’m protestant Irish). Where does diversity end and no cultural identity begin? This is what I struggle with.

It doesn’t help that my family has been here since the Revolutionary War, that my Southern ancestors were small farmers who owned one or two slaves, that I am completely WASP, and that I come from an upper-middle class background.

People look at me and start assuming that I’m racist–and I’ve been to enough cocktail parties with these country club folk to know that I do NOT share their views on blacks, Jews, Hispanics etc. It’s not everyone at every cocktail party, but it has happened often enough for me to say something (I am not hugely popular at these shindigs anymore) and I have told my BIL (1st class jerk) that he cannot express his views re minorities in my house. What else can I do? Continue to feel guilty that there is a history of racial strife in this country?

How deep should “White Man’s Guilt” go?

29

[QUOTE=brickbacon]
But if the label is accurate?
[/QUOTE]
It’s accurate to say that my car, myself, and my cat all weigh less than a Sherman tank.

You can call me a racist, and that may be accurate. But if you use the same word to describe a guy who just got done lynching a man, it’s pretty useless as a descriptor of our individual feelings on race. When racism is universal, does calling someone a racist provide any insight into their character, or does it just say “human”?

WhyNot, sorry about the mixup. We are definitely at the harder part, changing peoples actions is easier than changing their thoughts. Some might argue that changing actions is enough, and that nobody has the right to demand that I think the way they want me to.

30

[QUOTE=eleanorigby]
What else can I do? Continue to feel guilty that there is a history of racial strife in this country?

How deep should “White Man’s Guilt” go?
[/QUOTE]

What else can you do? General “you” not specific “you” can stop pooh poohing the idea that there is racism, that it affects people, that it harms people, that it can lie hidden, disguised by other motivations.

The frustrating thing is when someone says, “Well, I am not a racist and I hate Barry Bonds, so there can’t be any racial motivation behind hatred of Barry Bonds.” Or “Well, I’m not a racist and I despise rap music, so there can’t be any racial component to politicians decrying rap music.” Or “Well, I’m not a racist and I am against single motherhood, so there can’t be any racial aspect to welfare reform.”

People seem to have the idea that if it’s not outspoken and doesn’t involve someone in a hood, it isn’t racism. People will deny deny deny that they are racist in even small ways instead of accepting that they might be, and that it doesn’t mean they are ghastly people, it just means they need to be extremely aware of how their attitudes reflect on their actions.

31

Sorry, hit reply too soon.

Please know that I understand that people make snap judgements from one glance about everyone–but usually to the minoritys’ disadvantage. I get that. That’s wrong and needs to change. I think it is changing, slowly over time. Obivously, not quickly enough for those who bear the brunt of it. I doubt we would even be as far as we are, without the Civil Rights Movement–we have a ways to go, for sure.

I still drive the expressway and see 9 black people pulled over for every white one-that kind of thing. Shaneika Walker is less likely to get the interview than Melissa Thompson etc. Institutionalized racism is so pervasive and has so many faces, I can see how a black person or other minority would just think that all whites are jerks and want to keep him/her down. But I don’t think that’s true of all whites or even most whites.

I don’t know, maybe I’m not making sense. I went to a school with 1 black boy. By HS there were maybe 25 blacks in my graduating class(847 kids in total)–they sat by themselves at lunch. Do I remember any overt action by anybody to ensure they did that? No.I cannot recall even one black kid in any of my classes, even gym class. Surely that must be just poor memory? :confused:

Could I have done more in HS to help build a bridge? Maybe-it never occurred to me. I don’t remember them seeming to want or need a bridge. I was a wallflower in HS and just kept my head down–like most kids. I think that is true of most white adults as well(keeping their heads down). I would like to think that, anyway. But white flight still happens.

My kids go to the same school I did. There are probably 50 black kids in the elementary school, and the HS is about 30% black. My kids are growing up (as was stated upthread) that character is not tied to skin color. But they also struggle with the “race card” as well. It’s an easy word to say, sadly enough.

Good topic; hope it doesn’t flame out.

32

[QUOTE=Cheesesteak]
Some might argue that changing actions is enough, and that nobody has the right to demand that I think the way they want me to.
[/QUOTE]

I would be one of them. Any demands beyond “actions” enters the realm of Mind Police and Thought Patrol. Maybe I don’t like somebody because they are a jerk, or because I am, not because of their skin color.

“Racism” is a powerful word. To use it lightly or broadly robs it of its impact and power.

33

[QUOTE=Cheesesteak]
There is a fundamental problem with getting people to admit “pervasive racism”. It suggests, in a way, that there hasn’t been enormous progress in the last 50 years to eliminate racism.
[/quote]

I disagree. Racism is not an all or nothing quality. People were most certainly more racist 100 years ago. And 100 years from now, people will (probably) be less racist than they are today. Yet racism will still exist and, to an extent it will probably always be pervasive. So just because we say that racism is pervasive, doesn’t mean that progress hasn’t been made. It is simply less severe and overt.

What I see is that you are getting way too caught up in a word, as if the word determines the nature of something rather than merely serving as an adjective. WhyNot could call herself a racist if she’d like, but it’s more precise to refer to whatever particular biases and actions she has as “racist” than to apply it to herself. Labels belong to things, not people in most cases. Tally up all her racist thoughts and actions and compare them to those of her ancestors and I’m sure they hardly compare. We can celebrate that and still appreciate that the problem hasn’t competely gone away yet.

And I understand that you find it disheartening to be called a racist when the same label has been applied to much worse offenders, but this is not a good case for not employing language in the way that it is intended. The definition of racism is very simple. I object to reserving “racism” as a means of defining only the extreme, in-your-face examples of racial hatred, but–because feelings get hurt–using softer euphemisms for the more unconscious, subtler responses that we have. “Racism” has been overinflated with all this power and meaning, when it really shouldn’t.

34

[QUOTE=jsgoddess]
What else can you do? General “you” not specific “you” can stop pooh poohing the idea that there is racism, that it affects people, that it harms people, that it can lie hidden, disguised by other motivations.
[/QUOTE]

WTH is this? I don’t pooh-pooh it all. I also don’t believe that your “you” is general and not specific. How in hell have I dismissed racism? I do not. I have tried to express another side to it–it is not all about the “victim”–it effects us all. That was my point. Am I to feel guilty that my ancestors had slaves? What possible good would that do? Someone 200 years ago acted in accord with his culture-I pay the price for this? In NO way is this a condoning of slavery–slavery is evil, no matter the era or place. Were my ancestors evil people? How would I know? I can’t paint them as Harriet Beecher Stowe, but nor I can paint them as Simon LeGree.

I know nothing of Barry Bonds; couldn’t care less about BB. I do indeed hate rap music and refuse to change my tastes to be PC. Who said anything about politicians? Not me. You are making huge assumptions and I resent it. The only thing I feel for single mothers is pity–and a strong desire to kick the GOP out of office so that social programs could actually help people who need it and not just make smug people feel righteous.

I dunno who these “people” are, but they are not me. I fully accept that there is a kernel of racism in me–can you say the same? I haven’t seen any poster in the thread deny deny deny that racism exists. As I said, I am so extremely aware of how my actions or body language can be perceived that I resent being put that charade. I’ll let the black man in the elevator just be, and he can do the same for me. That’s what I would like to do.

35

[QUOTE=silenus]
Racism" is a powerful word. To use it lightly or broadly robs it of its impact and power.
[/QUOTE]

Exactly what "impact and “power” is this word supposed to have and most importantly, why should it have it?

36

I’ve been taught that racism is a bad thing, to be a racist is a bad thing. That’s why it has power, it’s related to all of the really awful things that have been done inthe past, things we’re trying to get away from.

If you use that word to describe me, it suggests that it is a characteristic that distinguishes me from others. A racist person is not the same thing as a person, the adjective “racist” modifies the noun, the modified noun must have different meaning than the original noun, or else the adjective is meaningless in that context.

If you apply the adjective broadly enough, it ceases to be a useful descriptor, because it describes everyone equally.

37

[QUOTE=eleanorigby]
WTH is this? I don’t pooh-pooh it all. I also don’t believe that your “you” is general and not specific.
[/QUOTE]

So, you’ve decided to believe that my comments are directed at you despite me saying that they are general? Whatever. I haven’t read the rest of your post, since you are deliberately, and admittedly, choosing to believe what you want to believe. That’s a shame, but not my problem.

38

[QUOTE=Cheesesteak]
If you apply the adjective broadly enough, it ceases to be a useful descriptor, because it describes everyone equally.
[/QUOTE]

It doesn’t describe everyone equally even if it describes everyone to some degree (and I think it probably does, to some degree).

My feeling is that if we are aware of it in ourselves and in others, we can fight it. We can’t fight what we can’t believe exists.

39

[QUOTE=jsgoddess]
So, you’ve decided to believe that my comments are directed at you despite me saying that they are general? Whatever. I haven’t read the rest of your post, since you are deliberately, and admittedly, choosing to believe what you want to believe. That’s a shame, but not my problem.
[/QUOTE]

And you choose to do the same. You state that you won’t “listen” to me or explain your comments further. Sound like a stalemate to me.

Kinda like racism, no?

Your comments are too pointed for me to not take them as directed at me. I’ll give you the Bonds remarks as being general–the other stuff is <throws up hands>–where did it come from? No-one had brought up politicians or single mothers until you did. Were you embellishing a point or trying to score one? I don’t know. I answered the way I did because your remarks seemed aimed at me. Since you didn’t read my post, I guess we’ll never iron it out.

There is a great irony here: I perhaps overreacted and you perhaps refuse to discuss. Perfect in a thread about racism. <insert rueful smiley here>

40

Seems to me a lot of African Americans I talk to, or read on-line, simply aren’t going to be satisfied until Whites admit they are racist. Apparently, once white people all admit it, something magical will happen, and the world will somehow be a better place.

Ain’t gonna happen. I’ll no more admit to being racist than I’ll admit to being a bad driver. You might get me, through education, to admit in some ways maybe I could a bit better at driving. But I’ll never own this “bad driver” label.

Same with racist.

The only way people would own the “racist” label is in the same empowering way people own the “bitch” or “asshole” labels. It means “I’m strong, independent, I don’t suffer fools well, I don’t let people take advantage of me, and in general I don’t take shit.”

You want people to proudly declare themselves racist, because they’re sick of taking shit from minorities? That’s the only way I see people owning the racist label.

No, I think what African Americans want is for white people - that is, white people in particular - to lower their eyes, hang their heads and admit to being racist. Then that magical something will happen.

I just don’t see it.