In which the mostly social-lefty AHunter3 gets annoyed at Political Correctness

I’m probably not supposed to be expressing this. Lest by doing so I take away from solidarity and momentum on various issues and so on.

I am not an economic lefty (or righty for that matter), but when it comes to social politics I’m against racism and sexism and I do consider them to be problems that need addressing in our society; I’m a children’s libber, women’s libber, supporter of the general goals of the Black Panthers and the American Indian Movement, I’m a mental patients’ libber myself, I believe in equal rights and protections for gays, lesbians, transgendered, ungendered, unmarried but living together, bisexuals, group marriage participants, communal living participants, and support the right to incest between consenting adults. I want to see equal protection and inclusion for Catholics, Protestants, Jews, Muslims, Pagans, Witches, Zoroastrians, Hindus, Buddhists, Taoists, Worshippers of Gitchimanituou, Baalists, Satanists, Cthulhu Worshippers, and Agnostics and Atheists.

Et Cetera.

So. The other day in a list in which I participate, an off-topic comment was made about women’s health care, an offhand reply was tossed out, and suddenly accusation of oppression are flying WTF??

Now, I didn’t start this thread to discuss the particulars of that conversation, but I’d like to use it as an example of what I do want to talk about, although you are free to disagree with the interpretations involved in saying it is an example of what I say it is an example of.

•_At some point in the mists of lefty-politics time, some authors or celebrity politicos wrote or spoke out about a tendency in the medical establishment to work from a male=norm model of health. In the process of doing so, they indicted the medical establishment as a legitimator of women’s marginal condition.

Now, not everyone subscribed to this list would necessarily have had reason to have read about what these people once said about the medical establishment with regards to being a bastion of patriarchy, because the list in question is neither specifically feminist nor specifically medical in focus. Nor, for that matter, did every left-leaning participant in women’s medical self-determination movements at the time necessarily agree with the assertions as stated. And, as stated, does it mean that legitimating women’s marginal condition is a hidden or additional function of the medical system, which nevertheless may be providing useful and necessary services to women in areas of practice where a male norm does not result in quality of care problems for women? Or does it mean that turning women’s experience into a series of medical diagnoses is what the medical profession does to women, period (no pun intended), or even that this is the sole social function of the medical system altogether?

So it would strike me that even among people who consider themselves attuned to and in agreement with these authors and movement leaders there is plenty of room for dialog and political theory discussion. But

• At some point, in a different patch of mist, some lefty theorists wrote and spoke about how one form of oppression is to negate or deny the experience of marginalized people, to correct them and say that what they claim happened to them did not in fact happen to them. Or, by extension, since you can’t relate what happened to you without some interpretation, that to correct them and say that their interpretation of events is not the proper way of interpreting them.

So. One person makes a comment quoting a newspaper article about the prostate and men’s health, saying that with women there is much more alienation from the body parts and much more tendency to portray them as troublesome and inherently “sick”. And someone says something about how it’s yet another example of how the medical system exists to perpetuate women’s marginality by turning the various aspects of femaleness into medical symptoms. And then someone says this tendency is not aimed at women per se, all of western medicine tends to alienate patients from their bodies and that medical insurance companies and hospital policies and their penny-pinching is to blame. Then the previous respondent cuts loos with “You are denying my experience and you are denying the important truth that the medical system objectifies and marginalizes women’s bodies as The Other, and when you do that you are collaborating in our oppression and I’m really upset about this and I expect better from this list and I come here to be with allies to fight against oppression not to experience further oppression and if the people of this list are going to tolerate this maybe I’d better leave, and if the person who said this doesn’t apologize I will still feel oppressed.”

God I hate this shit. It drives me fucking nuts…

Look. I’m a schizzy libber, and I know more about marginal conditions being turned into medical diagnoses and used as tools of oppression than you’ve ever had hints of in your worse nightmares. But I don’t demand an apology if someone comes in and describes themselves as a ‘feminist therapist’ just because Jeffrey Masson once said all therapy is inherently part of the problem. If I think it is, I will say that I think it is, but I’ll throw it out there as a perspective to be thought about, looked at and considered on its merits.

I’m not saying I want to reinvent every ideological political and conceptual wheel. If someone signs up for the list and then posts about how slavery or having sex with your own kids is perfectly legitimate behavior, I’ll join you in telling them to get the fuck out of here.

But do you want to go through life treating the entire world of political and social consciousness as a shrinkwrapped plastic bag full of Right Ideas that everyone is supposed to buy from the same Lefty K-Mart so we all Know the Right Way to Think of Things?

::shakes head in frustration::

I agree.

Sounds like an ass to me. But shouldn’t this be in the Pit?
Daniel

What you’re upset about is the tendency of ideologues on the Left and Right to not only intensely scrutinize everything for any politically or patriotically incorrect opinions but also turn them over and shake them just to see if anything suspect falls out. It’s petty nitpicking and it does nothing to advance any discussion but divide people into smaller acrimonious groups.

Also, the Left Hand of Dorkness is right (so to speak). This does belong in the Pit.

You know, I was just thinking about this tendency, you see it alot from the left these days. The contemporary left seems as up-tight about their rigid dogma as the 1950’s right was about their conservative morals. I imagine the left 50 years ago as a bunch of laid-back cool guys and gals, interested in free expression, whereas the right were uptight moralists and traditionalists constantly offended by anything that deviated from their picture of the perfect white-bread world. Now it seems to have completely switched, and liberals are the ones always finding things to take offense to.

I can’t stand people like the woman you mentioned, they spend so much time “feeling oppressed” that they have no understanding of real oppression. In a world where people are slaughtered by the thousands by tyrant regimes and forced to live in daily fear of military police, I don’t know how people can forget what oppression really looks like and have such a hissy fit about mere words. Feelings are not reality. If someone really is oppressed and wants to be free, he/she should start acting to be free, not sitting around whining and sulking about their feelings and looking for “solidarity” in support.

I don’t think this has much to do with Political Correctness (the favorite bogeyman of the Right, just after the Clintons :wink: ) and has more to do with Certain Overreactive Hypersensitive Posters.

In an alternate political universe, this “previous respondent” would be ranting about how the Secret Left-Wing Conspiracy is trying to turn the United States into a godless nation, and your rebuttals against her are merely an attempt to deny her eyewitness accounts… or something equally loopy. :rolleyes:

And yes, this should be in the Pit.

Yeah, I hate PC crap, too. Was that a controversial thing to say or what…?

This would be a much better Pit thread. Then I’d tell you what I really think.

You say “we’re our own worst enemy when we insist on factionalizing everything all the way down to the individual. We participate in our own oppression when we can’t get our shit together long enough to quit bickering amongst ourselves and present a united front.”

Only a little more jargony, and a bit more diplomatic.

Now, in a sane world, Ms. Hypersensitive would have said something like, “Well, I think I understand what you mean about western medicine in general, but I still think that women are worse off in this respect than men because blah blah blah boring personal anecdote.” And then there would have been rational discussion and that sort of thing.

In general, I think that more people should shut up.

On re-read, I myself think this should have been posted in the Pit. Wasn’t my original intention to write a Pit thread, it just sort of morphed into one.

Most certainly, the tendency is not unique to the left, it’s just that somehow it is creepier there. Doesn’t enforced uniformity belong somewhere over there ::points right::?

It’s things like this that make me enthusiastically willing to listen to and, where appropriate, support candidates (or just orators or posters) from the right who manage to just plain old make sense. I tend to think that if this was my first exposure to leftist thinking and I was a thinking person, I’d gravitate in the opposite direction. It wasn’t and I didn’t and there is a fantastic political cornucopia of people-empowering ideas on the leftwards plane, even if the left has no economic vision to accompany their entirely accurate economic critique of the unimpeded free market, and I like the idea of doing a mutual exchange of political DNA with thinking-for-themselves rightward people.

The left has become too fucking insular. Not universally, but way too damn often, and not called on it often enough from within ranks. oh sorry, is “rank” an offensive term?

Fwiw, I’m not convinced the eruption by this poster has anything to do with political ideology or even mere leanings; I rather get the feeling that this (I presume) woman is not particularly political in the first place, but has identified with a cause (oppression by the medial profession) which, almost coincidentally, the political left shares.

If that be that accurate, ultimately, of course, her cause is self-interest at best as self-pity at worst, but it manifests here as more acceptable ‘oppression’. That’s she spouts the jargon of the left is indicative of a chameleon quality. IMHO.

In short, a single issue, convenience store leftie. Pah!

::shakes hand in wanker sign::

God, I’m never using MicroShit ‘Word’ again. That barely makes sense at all!

London_Calling:

Insofar as I was relating this story as an example of something that pisses me off (i.e., ongoing phenomenon), what’s your take on the trend as a whole? Equally prevalent among conservatives? Equally prevalent outside of politics? Frankly I’ve yet to see this kind of thing erupt when people are debating best sports teams or talking about PCs and tech support or trying to bang out an effective advertising campaign. I have seen it among religious fundamentalists (first, even, that’s what it reminds me of, in fact) but outside of that camp not often among conservative political people. Maybe they hide it from those of us with suspiciously leftwards tilts to our social attitudes?

In the left, it often takes the form “There are a finite number of oppressions and we have identified them all by category and we know who they are and in what order of severity they rank, so we need not examine attitudes or social structure to see if anyone else is getting mistreated.”

Check me in as another lefty who has problems with PC. But I don’t really think the crew, and particularly the poster that AHunter is talking about are typical of lefties. They’re a subset of lefties on the extreme. Most lefties are concerned with MUCH more fundamental issues such as getting a living wage going somehow, trying to get universal health care, or something like it, going, making sure the elderly don’t get priced out of the market on the drugs they need to survive … little things like that.

I am cautious of the marginal left because they tend to be more active than the center left and have the potential to hijack the center left if we’re not careful, as happened with feminists. That is, feminists at one time were concerned with basic stuff like equal pay for equal work, preventing sexual abuse of women and children and bringing more respect to women who worked as homemakers – very important and useful stuff, IMHO. Then some radical lesbian feminists (Dworkin, MacKinnon) cranked up the rhetoric about “all sex is rape” and “pornography is the theory, rape is the practice” and suddenly feminism was all about censorship of sexual imagery.

Feminism lost ground big-time as a result. There’s been a counter-revolution in feminism since with the majority of feminists getting back to the basics, but the right is STILL harping on the “all sex is rape” stuff, and they’re also STILL portraying feminists as generally being in agreement on THEIR censorship plans.

The PC language thing is a barrier to success for the left. There are Issues That Cannot Be Discussed, Words That Cannot Be Used, Ideas That Dare Not Speak Their Names. It’s such obvious bullshit. How the hell are you going to have a dialogue if you can’t speak what’s on your mind? Fundamentally, the right has gotten a LOT more mileage by decrying PC attitudes than the left ever got out of them. They’re a disastrously bad idea.

Now I CAN get behind restricting ideas in particular forums in order to get somewhere. Frex, I think it would be almost impossible to get anywhere with a thread on how to organize American workers into unions to fight job loss and the erosion of workers’ rights in a bad economy, because conservatives and libertarians would constantly be interrupting the dialogue to challenge the idea of doing so. (They have a right to do so on the SDMB, of course, but people who are in agreement on issues like unionization also have a right to work on means rather than justifications.)

Still, there’s a huge difference between restricting discussion of the basics of a topic in order to make progress along agreed-upon lines, and declaring some topics Too Horrendous For Words.

Hell, YEAH! I always liked the cranky, earthy lefties of the 50s and 60s, like never-gonna-be-a-saint-while-this-Pope-lives Dorothy Day. No problems with political correctness there!

I, for one, prefer this thread’s being in GD so civility and reasoned discussion can rule the day. Pit threads get too pittish too quickly.

Keep in mind that PC was invented by the right to make fun of the left. Some elements of left, stupidly, adopted it as their own.

Nah, they were a bunch of assholes back then, too. Read some of Orwell’s essays about “the pansy left.”

Wait, so what does “Denying my experiences” mean? Does it just mean “You’re calling me a liar”? If it does, why did the woman not just say “You’re calling me a liar”?

“You’re calling me a liar” works like this:

Person A: The Nazis loaded people into cattle cars before my very eyes.
Person B: No way, never happened. It’s all Zionist propaganda.
Person A: Hey, asshole, you calling me a liar? I was there!

“Denying my experiences” tends to be a bit more like this:

Person A: The Nazis loaded people into cattle cars before my very eyes.
Person B: But probably neither the Nazis nor the Jews knew what was going on.
Person A: Oh, they knew all right. Overheard Nazi comments made it obvious they knew these folks weren’t coming back, and the Jews knew no one ever came back from those places too.
Person B: They all could’ve believed the Nazi policy was to expel the Jews, and the Jews would be better off elsewhere, they probably all thought it was the best solution, you know, send the Jews to Russia or America. Nazis happy, Jews happy, see?
Person A: No, it wasn’t like that, believe me.
Person B: Well, it could have been. You’re interpreting your memories through the lens of what you know now but nobody necessarily knew it then and they probably didn’t.
Person A: Quit denying me my experiences. I was there and I’m telling you we knew and they knew! What you’re doing is as bad in its own way as denying that the holocaust even happened!

That’s the legitimate form.

(In the mouth of people like the person I used in my example, of course, it’s just another trendy phrase for “Your putting of your feet on the ground offends my toes because you are potentially stepping on them”, i.e., “I don’t like your opinion so I’m going to lambaste you for not being politically correct in order to shut you up”)

Cite?