First, the last part is not the general case. I rode Tokyo subways for 20+ years and never saw anyone opening reading the such manga (anime is video). Once, I did see someone reading such a manga in a coffeeshop where he and I were the only customers. So, this was not in my experience.
Let me see if I can answer the rest without getting into a large hijack
Sexism, misogyny and – unfortunately – racism are all part of Japan, although the particulars are different than in the US. One difference is that people are more open, although in my experience in the States, it doesn’t mean that there is less. Sadly, I know people in the States who are quite racist, sexist and misogynistic. That all said, anything more would be better in another thread.
The point I was making was that while there are Japanese men (the herbivores) who feel marginalized by society, I haven’t been aware of the same kind of the same kind of outright hatred that incels seem to be showing nor the call for violence. Of course, America is a much more violent society.
I haven’t been carefully following Japanese new lately so it possible that there is a Japanese version of incels, but online searches so far are just talking about incels in the West.
I completely agree, as I’ve already said more than once, that we as a society need to change the way we socialize young people and fix our toxic gender-role expectations.
And one of the ways we need to do that is by changing our habit of normalizing, excusing, and deflecting responsibility for hostile behavior on the part of boys and men. When a boy or man is angry and acts out aggressively, we focus on how he’s feeling—“what’s wrong? why did he do that?”—instead of how the victim(s) of his aggression are feeling. When a girl or woman does the same, our immediate response is far more likely to be about setting the boundaries—“don’t do that! it’s wrong to do that!”—than about her feelings.
Of course we also need to care about the motivations and feelings of people who commit aggressive and hateful acts. But the first and loudest message that people engaged in hurting other people need to receive is DON’T HURT OTHER PEOPLE.
Skipping that step in order to focus on the hurter’s own feelings, and try to figure out what will make the hurter be happier or behave better, is part of the sexist gendered socialization process that is ultimately bad for both men and women.
For years I’ve heard that men are jerks because they work long hours, play golf or do stuff with their friends on the weekends, and if they spend 30 minutes a night helping their kids with their homework they call that parenting. Women were stuck with the hard work of taking care of the home and raising the kids. When some of those kids grow up to display some unhealthy attitudes, it seems odd to say that they learned it all from their fathers.
I was bullied pretty consistently when I was growing up, mostly by my older brother. I can’t remember my mother ever raising a finger to stop it. “Oh, what do you want me to do about it?” “Oh, aren’t you old enough to settle these things yourself?” “Oh, he’s just doing that because he knows it bothers you.” If I have trouble asking for help (classic toxic masculinity) now, I learned a long time ago that it wasn’t going to do any good.
Based on what I know about this phenomenon, it’s definitely based on low self-esteem and self-loathing. And there’s probably a huge component of bafflement/not understanding just HOW other guys get laid/get girlfriends. From their perspective, other guys, not all of who are ‘chads’ are getting laid.
So they assume there’s something wrong with them. Which is right, but what they think is wrong with themselves is incorrect. It’s not their height, looks, job, etc…
And IMO, it all stems from a misconception of how women work. These guys are viewing getting laid/having a girlfriend as a fundamentally mechanistic process- I do A, she’ll do B, etc… like it’s a magic spell or incantation, and are shocked and dismayed when it doesn’t work like that. It’s the same mentality as the whole pickup artist thing, but turned in a different direction- instead of trying to ‘improve’ themselves, they’re laying the blame on women for not actually responding to their efforts, and on themselves for not getting it right in some way. They don’t view women as fully realized people (“sentient” as **MandaJO **put it).
Then, where social media and the Internet come into it is that if you get most of your information from those sources, this stuff DOES look like it could be more mechanistic than it is. And social media reinforces exactly the wrong stuff- looks, flash, wealth, etc… And places like Reddit, etc… provide a place for them to gather together and trade notes/marinate in their own frustraton, depression, desperation and anger.
I suspect the trick is to somehow teach them that women are people- they respond like people, not like video games or magical spells.
We do tell people not to hurt others but at the same time we need to teach them how to deal with the cravings and desires that lead to those behaviors. Stop it before it gets started.
I dont know exactly how but I would start with telling them I dont think any less of him if he’s not dating or having trouble getting steady work. Praise the small steps he is taking such as holding a job for a year. Getting his own place. Putting money in the bank. Best of all DONT put pressure on him to have a girlfriend or to get married.
Women send tender hearted young boys off to school, where they are taught what is and isn’t acceptable by a peer group. THAT’S where they are bullied, socialized against girls, get called fags, and are expected to demonstrate physical attributes to avoid shaming.
Ignoring this fundamental truth seems hugely misguided to me.
I’m reminded of the movie “Groundhog Day” where Bill Murrays character relives every day with the intent of getting the woman and how every day he corrects one error he previously made until he finally gets her.
No. It is when he stops pursuing her and acts like a decent human being that he gets the girl. Admittedly decades of honing certain skills has made him more talented and hence he more readily attracts her attention. But it is the development of a basic sense of humanity that wins her over. In fact the movie goes out of its way to show that when he tried to game the system and kept “correcting” his dating skills he failed every single time.
Hah! Personally I always imagined it like old-timey Nintendo games where you’d have a "code’ that you’d enter - up, up, down, left, right, up, left, right, and so forth. And at the end, if you entered it right, you’d pick up at the level you left off at.
I’m sure with these guys there’s a pretty big component of not understanding what women find attractive, even more so than the usual young man cluelessness. And a lot of it really stems from their perception of women as something other than a normal person who has boogers, gas, and takes dumps.
You actually know some men who are "going their own way, "right? Are these the same guys you mentioned?
That’s a movement that is linked to the incel mindset. MGTOW consider themselves “redpilled” instead of “blackpilled” but there’s still elements in common (hated of feminism, belief that women are hypergamous and traitorous by nature and living life on tutorial mode, and using Matrix cliches to signal that they’re the only ones who really know what reality is) Incels believe that they are doomed by biology to be alone and MGTOW believe that women are doomed by biology to be awful, but that whole evolutionary psychology thing is still at heart of it.
Try going to an incel forum and tell them to work on their careers before working about having sex. You’ll be bombarded with responses about sub3 and looksmatch, bone structure and copes.
I don’t know how to reach MGTOW or Incels. Telling them about men who made a mistake and married women who “took them for all they had” is going to reinforce those beliefs, not dispel them.
A lot of what these incels need is that first relationship (assuming it’s a healthy one.) That 1st relationship will help debunk a lot of their wrong notions about women, along with boosting confidence and getting them over the big initial hump. Then the ball gets rolling.
Unfortunately, the longer their incel status continues, the harder and harder it gets to get over that big first obstacle.
Maybe we are living in different societal spheres but I get exactly the opposite impression - that when a woman lashes out in anger, she is expressing her feelings and venting what needs to be vented, whereas a man who does the same is exhibiting dangerous and less-than-civilized behavior.
I don’t know what world people are living in where only men are toxic and bullying and mean towards socially inept males. I see plenty of women participating too. Just like women can perpetuate misogyny, they can also perpetuate toxic masculinity.
And Incel women exist and display attitudes that are just as horrible as their male counterparts. We just don’t have any Elliot Rodgers poster children to represent them.
Yes and no. You’re right that becoming a better person and releasing his focus on getting “the prize” was the key to establishing a meaningful relationship with Andie MacDowell and ultimately escaping the time loop.
But the puzzle-box approach did get Murray laid with Marita Geraghty’s character, the more stereotypical “hot girl” in the movie. I suspect that reflects the goal most incels are more focused on.
I had to look up those terms and the only one I found was “looksmatch” and yeah, men tend to want to go after women about their same attractiveness label. You will have to help me on the others.
Difference between incel and MGTOW.
To me an incel would be a young man who cant even get a relationship started with a woman. He is frustrated because women dont find him attractive or they are put off by his approach. MGTOW is for the men who have been in relationships or have been married and then got burned on it. Remember a ex can take half of whatever you have in a divorce (or even if you just lived together).
For both my advice would be the same. Work first on their careers and personal development before getting to involved with a woman. And then when they do get involved, take it slowly and carefully. Become friends first. Learn to spot the ones just out to get a meal ticket or who like to use men and then discard them.
But either one would also to be to not give up hope. There are great women out there who also are looking for the right man but have been burned by bad relationships.
Applied to adults and
Trying equalize social expectations
What you need to look at is how children are being socialized. I don’t have any to hand, but I have seen studies indicating that people still accept violent or destructive behavior in boys to a greater percent than girls. And that there are still more aggressive male role models than female.
And I wouldn’t be surprised that your expectations or the expectations of society are distorting the relative commonness of those stories - are all the stories about men being told because men are not supposed to be violent? Or because the stories are told when men exceed an acceptable amount of violence?
