Incels, terrorism, and preventative measures

[k9bfriender]

@Broomstick

What makes them loathesome to me is not their sex life or lack of it. Frankly, I couldn’t care less what other people do or don’t get up to.

What makes them loathesome are the following, any one or more:

• continually and always blaming others for their own faults and failings.
• demanding other people service them
• regarding half the human race as nothing more than sex dispensers
• demanding virgins for their own use
• wanting what are essentially sexual slaves
• calls to deny women agency, the vote, jobs, or any other form of independence
• admiration of murders like Rodger Elliot
• calls to maim and/or kill other people

I trust this clarifies matters
The latter.

Yeah, I’m just trying to digest, as well as try to formulate my thoughts. I consider this sort of introspection, especially about a person I no longer am, to be a bit of a process. I am trying to explain a mindset, without sounding like I am excusing, justifying, or rationalizing it.

I guess what I was trying to say is that it is their personality that is the turnoff. It is the person that they are, the way that they portray themselves, the way they hold themselves, their interests and dislikes and the ways they react to things that come together to create a personality that receives little romantic interest. They have a personality that is unattractive romantically, and that was why I was wondering if you considered that to be loathsome as well.

I’ve experienced this personally quite a bit. I am (or at least was in my younger years) fairly physically attractive, enough so that the majority of women that I’ve gone on dates with are women that asked me out, rather than the other way around. However, things don’t work out too well when we go out, just the two of us. I sometimes talk too much, sometimes not enough, but in any case, have difficulties really engaging their interests, even if we are talking about something that she has professed interest in.

I really can’t say what it is about the way I act, but it is something that just doesn’t interest people romantically. It is my personality, and I will admit that that was a hard pill to swallow, that people just don’t like me for who I am, even though, most people would agree, I am a good person.

So, I do wonder how much of it is that they do have a personality that is romantically unattractive, and that is a hard thing to discover, and a harder thing to accept. When you think you are a good person, and when others reaffirm that you are a good person, then it is hard to see that it is you, as a person, that is what is unacceptable.

That is why your post punched me in the gut a little bit. I will agree that a full incel that has completely externalized their problems and put all their problems on women has a loathsome personality. But someone can have a personality that does drive off women, and still be a good person, and so find it hard to accept that it is in fact their personality that is the cause of the problems. With the language that is directed at such people (in this very thread), and the assumptions about their jobs, social status, and living arrangements totalling up to declare them “losers”, I wasn’t sure if you were directing such comments to be about anyone with a non-romantically inclined personality.

[you_with_the_face]

@andros

In my experience/research, sometimes this is the case. If they were to have one of their own, or a normie, suggest that they are indeed not terrible to look upon, they will then be able to further externalize their “problems.”

I think most of these guys aren’t humble bragging; they really think they look like monsters. When they post pics of themselves, usually there is at least one poster that will accuse them of trolling because they are insufficiently ugly to really be an incel. And you can tell that this isn’t really said in a supportive or complimentary way, but more like “What do you have to complain about? You’re not a real incel.”

Being average or above in looks disqualifies them from being a true incel, and since being one gives meaning to their lives, they have little incentive in hearing that they are physically attractive enough to get laid. For them, it’s probably the equivalent to a regular person being told they are ugly.

The Toronto killer, Alex Minassian, is a self-proclaimed incel, and he is not an ugly guy. I mean, sure the unibrow thing is distracting, but that is nothing that some tweezers couldn’t cure. I think we all know of men who look far worse who nevertheless are romantically successful. Clearly, his perception of himself is distorted and so too is his perception of others.

[Velocity]

Most people, deep down, have their own internal version of truth and reality. And they enjoy being in the company of people who share the same internal view of reality and truth that they do.

Applies to politics, social issues, everything. Incels are just one example of it.

[Ulfreida]

@k9bfriender

Yeah, I’m just trying to digest, as well as try to formulate my thoughts. I consider this sort of introspection, especially about a person I no longer am, to be a bit of a process. I am trying to explain a mindset, without sounding like I am excusing, justifying, or rationalizing it.

I guess what I was trying to say is that it is their personality that is the turnoff. It is the person that they are, the way that they portray themselves, the way they hold themselves, their interests and dislikes and the ways they react to things that come together to create a personality that receives little romantic interest. They have a personality that is unattractive romantically, and that was why I was wondering if you considered that to be loathsome as well.

I’ve experienced this personally quite a bit. I am (or at least was in my younger years) fairly physically attractive, enough so that the majority of women that I’ve gone on dates with are women that asked me out, rather than the other way around. However, things don’t work out too well when we go out, just the two of us. I sometimes talk too much, sometimes not enough, but in any case, have difficulties really engaging their interests, even if we are talking about something that she has professed interest in.

I really can’t say what it is about the way I act, but it is something that just doesn’t interest people romantically. It is my personality, and I will admit that that was a hard pill to swallow, that people just don’t like me for who I am, even though, most people would agree, I am a good person.

So, I do wonder how much of it is that they do have a personality that is romantically unattractive, and that is a hard thing to discover, and a harder thing to accept. When you think you are a good person, and when others reaffirm that you are a good person, then it is hard to see that it is you, as a person, that is what is unacceptable.

That is why your post punched me in the gut a little bit. I will agree that a full incel that has completely externalized their problems and put all their problems on women has a loathsome personality. But someone can have a personality that does drive off women, and still be a good person, and so find it hard to accept that it is in fact their personality that is the cause of the problems. With the language that is directed at such people (in this very thread), and the assumptions about their jobs, social status, and living arrangements totalling up to declare them “losers”, I wasn’t sure if you were directing such comments to be about anyone with a non-romantically inclined personality.

Your post should be the subject of a different thread, really. People who cannot seem to attract or to keep romantic attention are a different question; and for each person for whom that is so, probably a different answer.

The ratio of men who strike out romantically and feel morose, puzzled, or motivated to figure out why vs. men who hate women ostensibly because they strike out romantically is probably extremely skewed toward the former. I hope.

[Broomstick]

@k9bfriender

I guess what I was trying to say is that it is their personality that is the turnoff. It is the person that they are, the way that they portray themselves, the way they hold themselves, their interests and dislikes and the ways they react to things that come together to create a personality that receives little romantic interest. They have a personality that is unattractive romantically, and that was why I was wondering if you considered that to be loathsome as well.

A person can be off-putting - perhaps missing social cues, or having odd conversational tics (like staring TOO intently) that can be off-putting to a woman without actually be a loathsome person. I can be acquaintances or even friends with such a person (up to a point) while not considering them for “romance” as you put it. There’s a difference between painfully awkward, or a social misfit, or eccentric, and being “loathsome”. Loathsome people are people I don’t even want to be near, like, not within sight of such a person, not in the same room, maybe not even the same building. That’s quite different than what you’re talking about.

[k9bfriender]

@Ulfreida

Your post should be the subject of a different thread, really. People who cannot seem to attract or to keep romantic attention are a different question; and for each person for whom that is so, probably a different answer.

The ratio of men who strike out romantically and feel morose, puzzled, or motivated to figure out why vs. men who hate women ostensibly because they strike out romantically is probably extremely skewed toward the former. I hope.

Well, the problem is is that there is already conflation of the two. If someone strikes out a bunch, they are often lumped into the incel catagory against their wishes. When I hear people talking about “losers” who can’t get a date, that hits me too. And it does hurt, even now.

Part of the problem is what you said there, “motivated to figure out why”, as that was the single thing that most frustrated me. I was very motivated to figure out why I kept driving women into the friend zone, and trying to figure out why is what led me on a road towards inceldom. As was stated in previous threads, trying to ask a woman why she turned you down is a non-starter, and short of asking the person who turned you down why they did, you have little more to work on than guesses.

So, it’s a bit like the dark side. You don’t start out as a sith, you work your way up to it. You start with being rejected, and not understanding why. Any efforts to try to understand why are futile, and everything about romance becomes frustrating. Puzzlement stops being lighthearted fairly quickly. Throw in societal pressures not to be a “loser”, and it is hard not to become somewhat resentful about your circumstances.

Resentment isn’t hate, but it is easily called that by others, and so being resentful makes you a hater, being upset at your lack of romantic success makes you a misogynist.

So, I would say that your ratio is probably correct, except that people start on the former side of the equation, and work their way towards the latter over time and as frustrations increase. I would also say that there are quite a number of people in the former catagory that are labeled by others as being in the second catagory, which also tends to push them that direction.

I would also say that your average incel, proto or full blown is more of a misanthrope than a strict misogynist. From some level of exposure to their forums that I’ve followed from links here, I see more disdain and bitterness directed towards men than towards women.

I also don’t know that you can really take their forums as a serious measure of where the actual sentiment of the group is. Most of that stuff is trolling. Back in the late 90’s, I ran into a sov cit message board. I thought it was a joke, really, so I created an account on it, and started posting. My goal was to top the last post’s silliness. It was only when people started telling me that I made a good point that I realized that people may actually take this crap seriously. And then I posted on it for another year, just constantly one-upping the idiocy that I was responding to. Now, there wasn’t the same sort of violent narratives in that as there are in Incel forums, sure, but I do wonder how many people were actually serious, and how many were like me, and just seeing how ridiculous an idea or scenario I could put out without anyone calling me out on it. I still watch sov cit videos sometimes to see if they use one of my ideas.

To come back to what I thought the point of this thread was, how to prevent this style of radicalization from turning into terrorism, part of it needs to be recognized that not all self described Incels are full blown incels. Just because someone who has had a history of being rejected finds a community that doesn’t reject them doesn’t mean that they take on all the beliefs of that community immediately. I feel that there is an us vs them mentality that is reinforced by society calling people who cannot get dates “losers” that further pushes them away from mainstream thought.

I have typed a bunch, and I don’t know if it is even coherent, and I don’t know where I’m trying to go with this, other than to say that everything that I have seen in this thread simplifies the problem to the point where any proposed solutions would just make the problem worse. There are assumptions that are made about the people in question that I do not feel are entirely fair. The harsh words directed towards the “angry losers” are probably appropriate to only a small minority of those targeted by them, but they all get caught in the crossfire, and then they have to pick a side, and they are not likely to pick the side that is attacking them.

[wonky]

@k9bfriender

Well, the problem is is that there is already conflation of the two. If someone strikes out a bunch, they are often lumped into the incel catagory against their wishes.

I have not seen this happen. In fact, I think it’s been completely the opposite, where people see Incels on one side of a huge divide and lonely people on the other side and think there’s no commonality.

To come back to what I thought the point of this thread was, how to prevent this style of radicalization from turning into terrorism, part of it needs to be recognized that not all self described Incels are full blown incels. Just because someone who has had a history of being rejected finds a community that doesn’t reject them doesn’t mean that they take on all the beliefs of that community immediately. I feel that there is an us vs them mentality that is reinforced by society calling people who cannot get dates “losers” that further pushes them away from mainstream thought.

At some point, people are responsible for the ideologies they embrace. If someone is a self-described Incel, I’m going to assume they are an Incel. I can’t say “Oh, he’s an Incel, but he’s one of the ones who won’t rape and kill us!”

[begbert2]

@k9bfriender: Who labels guys who strike out "incels’? Yes, they get labeled losers among various other insults, but ‘incel’ is damn near a technical term; it’s not like anybody would use it outside the self-named incel communities themselves.

If it is just the incel communities calling other lonely men incels, then that’s recruitment.

Aside from that bit claiming that society in general is slinging around the incel label, I basically agree with you. The situation isn’t one where incels are born awful self-hating misogynists - that has to be learned. And it’s easy to learn, because while society doesn’t call lonely men incels, it does call them losers, and bitterness and anger are natural responses to that kind of abuse, as is internalizing that abuse, which makes it basically constant.

What’s a person to do when they’re in this situation?

1. Improve yourself! That’s easy to say. Similarly, all poor people have to do is get high-paying jobs - the problem of poverty is now solved! Or, more realistically, this is a difficult approach fraught with failure. It’s possible to succeed, but it’s also very possible to find yourself still facing the exact same situation, only more depressed, bitter, and angry.

2. Blame the people rejecting you. Easy. Appealing. Makes you feel good. And now with the internet, you have these helpful communities that will show you how it’s done!

3. Blame yourself - accept that you’re awful and doomed. Solitude and loneliness forever, because you’re awful! Yay!
   Approach three has worked for me, but I can abstractly see how it might lack appeal for others. Option one is decidedly unappealing in a number of ways. Which leaves option two…

[k9bfriender]

@wonky

I have not seen this happen. In fact, I think it’s been completely the opposite, where people see Incels on one side of a huge divide and lonely people on the other side and think there’s no commonality.

From the perspective of someone who has already categorized them, sure. But there is enough in common between a normal lonely person and an Incel that when you hit at the Incels, some of that strike does collateral damage to the lonely.

At some point, people are responsible for the ideologies they embrace. If someone is a self-described Incel, I’m going to assume they are an Incel. I can’t say “Oh, he’s an Incel, but he’s one of the ones who won’t rape and kill us!”

I wouldn’t ask you to do so, I 'm just saying that I don’t think that most of the Incel community is not as far gone as is being assumed here, and most could be brought back to mainstream thought.

[wonky]

@k9bfriender

From the perspective of someone who has already categorized them, sure. But there is enough in common between a normal lonely person and an Incel that when you hit at the Incels, some of that strike does collateral damage to the lonely.

I reject the idea that hitting at Incels by name hits anyone but Incels. If people embrace the term, that’s on them.

I wouldn’t ask you to do so, I 'm just saying that I don’t think that most of the Incel community is not as far gone as is being assumed here, and most could be brought back to mainstream thought.

I think most people can be brought back. That does not in any way mean that I’m going to act like they aren’t that bad to start with.

[begbert2]

@wonky

I reject the idea that hitting at Incels by name hits anyone but Incels. If people embrace the term, that’s on them.

I’m a poor mind reader, but he might be more talking about cases where the incel community is not targeted by name, but more by their attributes as lonely angry childish stupid loser people. As one who used to be a lonely angry childish nonstupid loser person, it hits pretty close to the bone, and it sounds like you’re lumping me in with them.

The same sort of thing is why “not-all-men” became a thing - men who weren’t rapists found the accusations against men being rapists hitting too close to home, and started trying to defend themselves and shoot back. Which had the effect of putting them on the same side as actual rapists, at least in the eyes of everyone else. Not a good situation all around.

[k9bfriender]

@begbert2

@k9bfriender: Who labels guys who strike out "incels’? Yes, they get labeled losers among various other insults, but ‘incel’ is damn near a technical term; it’s not like anybody would use it outside the self-named incel communities themselves.

If it is just the incel communities calling other lonely men incels, then that’s recruitment.

Both. Mostly they are called losers, sometimes angry losers, if they show any sign of being upset about their situation.

I’ve also been called an incel, but only twice in person, and that was specifically in reaction to them learning that I had not had a girlfriend in several years. It was actually where I first heard the term.

Aside from that bit claiming that society in general is slinging around the incel label, I basically agree with you. The situation isn’t one where incels are born awful self-hating misogynists - that has to be learned. And it’s easy to learn, because while society doesn’t call lonely men incels, it does call them losers, and bitterness and anger are natural responses to that kind of abuse, as is internalizing that abuse, which makes it basically constant.

Agreed here. Like I have said, I’ve seen the road to Inceldom, and were it not for a few mitigating factors, I may have found it enticing. The fact that I did have good friends helped dampen the feelings of resentment that I had no romance. I’ve also not lived with my parents since I was a bit under 18, and have held a job that at least pays the bills for nearly all my adult life (damn the recession of 2008).

I’ve also worked in restaurants most of that time, and I don’t know that I really understood what the term “toxic masculinity” meant until I was no longer surrounded by it. Some of the shit that I’ve heard in the kitchen, from people with active sex lives, makes what I’ve seen on Incel forums pretty damn tame.

What’s a person to do when they’re in this situation?

1. Improve yourself! That’s easy to say. Similarly, all poor people have to do is get high-paying jobs - the problem of poverty is now solved! Or, more realistically, this is a difficult approach fraught with failure. It’s possible to succeed, but it’s also very possible to find yourself still facing the exact same situation, only more depressed, bitter, and angry.

this would be optimal, but I don’t know that the resources are out there for this. Even with friends who cared about me, and quite a bit of motivation, and resources of my own, I still never found a way of “improving” myself in such a way that I could attract and keep a healthy relationship.

2. Blame the people rejecting you. Easy. Appealing. Makes you feel good. And now with the internet, you have these helpful communities that will show you how it’s done!

That works too. Does make you feel a bit better. And, to be honest, I don’t know entirely that blaming individuals for their individual rejections is that inappropriate. Obviously, any sort of retaliation is not, and expanding your blame of one person onto an entire gender or species makes even less sense. But if an individual hurts you, then you should be allowed to be upset about being hurt.

3. Blame yourself - accept that you’re awful and doomed. Solitude and loneliness forever, because you’re awful! Yay!

That was my normal tactic. If I didn’t have friends to pull me out of my funks after some particularly painful rejections, I can see some spirals of depression and despair to go down.

Approach three has worked for me, but I can abstractly see how it might lack appeal for others. Option one is decidedly unappealing in a number of ways. Which leaves option two…

Option one is obviously the most optimal, but it is also the one that the lonely awkward loser has the least ability to do on their own.

@begbert2

I’m a poor mind reader, but he might be more talking about cases where the incel community is not targeted by name, but more by their attributes as lonely angry childish stupid loser people. As one who used to be a lonely angry childish nonstupid loser person, it hits pretty close to the bone, and it sounds like you’re lumping me in with them.

Exactly that. Every time I see the word “loser” in this thread, it hurts me a bit. When people say “Incels are just a bunch of angry losers”, then as a loser myself, I feel as though that comment is partially directed at me.

[begbert2]

@k9bfriender

Both. Mostly they are called losers, sometimes angry losers, if they show any sign of being upset about their situation.

I’ve also been called an incel, but only twice in person, and that was specifically in reaction to them learning that I had not had a girlfriend in several years. It was actually where I first heard the term.

I find myself wondering if you may have run into a self-described incel in real life. Seriously, the term is not a normal way to describe the situation in question.

@k9bfriender

That works too. Does make you feel a bit better. And, to be honest, I don’t know entirely that blaming individuals for their individual rejections is that inappropriate. Obviously, any sort of retaliation is not, and expanding your blame of one person onto an entire gender or species makes even less sense. But if an individual hurts you, then you should be allowed to be upset about being hurt.

Which is why I mentioned those helpful internet communities - the safe little bubble of like-minded people custom-made to encourage and escalate the anger and bitterness, especially since it’s really easy for a group to manipulate a person who is feeling lonely and craves approval.

So, I blame the internet! Burn it down! Burn the internet down!

@k9bfriender

Exactly that. Every time I see the word “loser” in this thread, it hurts me a bit. When people say “Incels are just a bunch of angry losers”, then as a loser myself, I feel as though that comment is partially directed at me.

Right - it’s a short step to go from “Incels are lonely losers” to “Lonely losers are incels”. (Doing so is a logical fallacy, but it’s still easy to do, especially at an emotional level.)

It puts a person in the uncomfortable position of wanting to defend incels - or at least the ones who are only barely in the community and haven’t dived feet-first into misogyny, hatred, and murder. The ‘toe in the water’ types, so to speak; the ones not far gone. However that’s a temptation to be resisted, because being seen as arguing for incels-in-general would not be a popular position around here.

[Broomstick]

@k9bfriender

I’ve also been called an incel, but only twice in person, and that was specifically in reaction to them learning that I had not had a girlfriend in several years. It was actually where I first heard the term.

Agreed here. Like I have said, I’ve seen the road to Inceldom, and were it not for a few mitigating factors, I may have found it enticing. The fact that I did have good friends helped dampen the feelings of resentment that I had no romance. I’ve also not lived with my parents since I was a bit under 18, and have held a job that at least pays the bills for nearly all my adult life (damn the recession of 2008).

The thing is, you had normal contact with other people, you have friends - I’m not sure the toxic incels have friends as we understand them.

If you’ve been living on your own, even if not luxuriously, and paying your bills, and have friends then you are NOT loser. You may not be wildly successful in some peoples’ eyes, but you are not the sort of guy we’re talking about.

Lack of success in romance is bad. It feels bad. It makes your angry. As I’ve said, it’s actually normal for adult humans to go through periods of not having a relationship. Knowing it’s “normal” doesn’t really fix the problem, of course, but understand that you do have company.

In this thread we’re talking about a minority of people who are not currently in relationships. It’s a small group that cause a lot of problems because they espouse violence and hate and admire spree killers. You don’t sound like you fit any of that.

I don’t want to diminish your problems and frustrations. They are real. I get it. But going by your posts you’re not one of the bad guys.

[begbert2]

@Broomstick

The thing is, you had normal contact with other people, you have friends - I’m not sure the toxic incels have friends as we understand them.

If you’ve been living on your own, even if not luxuriously, and paying your bills, and have friends then you are NOT loser. You may not be wildly successful in some peoples’ eyes, but you are not the sort of guy we’re talking about.

I believe the point is that while you wouldn’t call him a loser, others would. Your charitable opinions are appreciated but (I suspect) wouldn’t have much weight in convincing him that when people talk about lonely loser single guys, they’re not talking about him. I mean, if you were to direct those words at me I’d be unconvinced.

@Broomstick

In this thread we’re talking about a minority of people who are not currently in relationships. It’s a small group that cause a lot of problems because they espouse violence and hate and admire spree killers. You don’t sound like you fit any of that.

I don’t want to diminish your problems and frustrations. They are real. I get it. But going by your posts you’re not one of the bad guys.

He’s not a bad guy, but (as he’s said), he (and I) share exactly the profile of these sort of bad guys, and given slightly different circumstances could have been drawn into the warm and comforting arms of the incel community. Those guys may be monsters, but they weren’t always, and for me at least it’s real easy to see where they came from.

[begbert2]

I should amend myself - most incels weren’t always monsters. There are doubtlessly a percentage of them who were always monsters, and saw the opportunity to create communities of like-minded people by gathering up lonely but otherwise decent people and deliberately pushing them to espouse the same opinions the natural misogynists and psychopaths already held. Yes, I’m saying that incel communities were deliberately crafted to be evil bastard-making cesspits. And of course such groups probably soak up newly arriving shitheads like sponges, keeping the flow of incoming non-shithead from diluting the message.

See? I basically fell into the trap myself - my ability to see where some incels are coming from clouded my ability to recognize the obvious fact that the toxic shit comes from mostly or entirely from people who are actually toxic. And if the people saying it to you aren’t psychopaths themselves, then maybe they have a point - but no, they of course don’t, they’re just passing along toxic shit.

[Lamoral]

The height thing is truly absurd. I remember being like 10 or 11 and feeling shitty that I was shorter than most of the other guys (all my friends played basketball). I was SO jealous of the taller boys. My parents cleverly cured me of this by informing me that Tom Cruise, who I thought was basically the coolest guy on earth, was short, and that they just used filming tricks to make him look taller in the movies. Their strategy was successful. Also, I soon learned that having a lower center of gravity makes it easier, not harder, to tackle people, and I decided sports where you tackle people were more fun than basketball anyway.

Flash forward to current year and somehow it’s become an article of faith with these assholes that being short is an inescapable CURSE of inceldom. It’s one of the numerous things that tilts me towards the “abject loathing” side of the fence every time I try to dredge up even a little bit of sympathy for their predicament.

[Broomstick]

@begbert2

I believe the point is that while you wouldn’t call him a loser, others would. Your charitable opinions are appreciated but (I suspect) wouldn’t have much weight in convincing him that when people talk about lonely loser single guys, they’re not talking about him. I mean, if you were to direct those words at me I’d be unconvinced.

I think this gets back to other men actually being harsher in this regard than some of us women.

He’s not a bad guy, but (as he’s said), he (and I) share exactly the profile of these sort of bad guys, and given slightly different circumstances could have been drawn into the warm and comforting arms of the incel community. Those guys may be monsters, but they weren’t always, and for me at least it’s real easy to see where they came from.

Oh, I get that - but the point is, neither of you did fall into that pit. That’s things like friends are so important. That’s why access to legal prostitution might help - because although in many ways less than ideal you at least aren’t a virgin anymore so the really toxic assholes might reject you over that, or you might say, well, no, I’m not an incel because I have been laid. Is this going to work for everyone? No - but if we have a way to pull a couple of guys away from these group here, and some more by some other means, and so on it will reduce the problem. And that’s progress.

[monstro]

@Broomstick

If you’ve been living on your own, even if not luxuriously, and paying your bills, and have friends then you are NOT loser. You may not be wildly successful in some peoples’ eyes, but you are not the sort of guy we’re talking about.

There are lots of people who don’t live on their own and cannot pay their own bills and do not have friends, but are still doing positive things with their lives. I don’t feel comfortable calling anyone a “loser” soley based on what and (who) they don’t have. IMHO, “loser” is a mindset. Not a lifestyle.

[P-man]

When I was a “loser” who went years between dates, there were no online communities. Would I have been drawn in? I can say with almost virtual certainty that I wouldn’t have. I hated my inability to make romantic connections with every fiber of my being. I hated violence against my fellow human beings more. As time went on, I began to hate myself for my inability to attract women. Taller than average, in very good physical condition, well educated, and always did my best to treat everyone with respect. Female acquaintances would say that women who didn’t want to go out with me must be crazy (no, they weren’t; they just weren’t attracted to me. I never bought that bs). I started out thinking I was just butt-ugly, but got to the point that I had some horrible personality flaw that ensured no woman would ever want to be in a relationship with me. The truth was that I was extremely socially awkward and unable to read social cues (I still can’t, actually). For some reason Ms. P wasn’t scared away.

Maybe incels are folks who can’t handle it when things don’t go their way. It just happens to be not getting laid, but it could be thinking “those people” are taking their jobs.