Incels, terrorism, and preventative measures

I may not be the right person to respond in this thread. But I never got any of that. Plenty of guy friends. Didn’t have sex until way after high school. My guy friends and I just didn’t talk about it. While we sometimes assumed, or wondered, it was never asked. And we where a rowdy bunch. An interesting high school I went to, the Jocks, the stoners and the ‘brains’ all hung out together.

I was born in 1960. So I suspect my friends and I might be a bit of an anomaly.

I did experience that.

I almost fought once. I’d always been one of the biggest guys in school, so I was never picked on. Except one time.

A little kid (I must have had 6"'s and 30lbs on him), started calling my mother names out of the blue. I didn’t know who he was, or what the hell it was all about. (I’m pretty sure he just wanted to fight one of the biggest kids in school) I could have stomped him (I suppose). My first thought was ‘what the hell is wrong with him’?

Later, I felt real, real, bad that I let him call my mother names (being a kid is very weird. It hurt horribly, I thought I did something wrong by walking away). Two days later, he was expelled from 7th grade for having a Colt 1911 .45 in his locker.

7th freaking grade. 1973.

I’m rather glad I walked away from that.

There was a Reddit thread in which someone had done a survey of around 2,300 incels and a sizable number of them (around 40% or more) were minority-race.

This.

I have never once understood the logic of, “When people mock me, I get angry, but when I mock other people, it will make them docile and tamer.”

I was reading an Incel forum and one of the thread was a poll about a passed out woman getting raped: would you stop the guy, would you do nothing, or wait your turn?

More than 80% of the (about 50) respondents said do nothing or join in.

One person said he’d take video and call the police- he was abused for that remark.

I want to believe that these guys are trolling, and maybe a lot of them are. One guy said that since she was a slut, after he finished, he might throw acid on her or cut her up. Another said he did see such a rape and just watched to “learn.”

They viciously attack anyone that is seen as “not a real Incel”- in other words don’t at least verbally embrace rape, violence and flat murder.

I don’t know how much mocking they were subjected to before embracing the Incel community. They certainly relish being on the other side now.

This is anecdotal but I haven’t seen women, outside of linked incel stuff, blamed for the emotional status of the so-called incel group. How much of these ideas are even in the general consciousness of society? It seems so fringe. But maybe that’s me.

It seems misogynistic rants aren’t taken seriously. If anything, the ranter is considered like you said an “angry loser.” I don’t know if it’s a pass but it’s definitely not the same level of societal ostracism that lets say a racist rant would generate.

Until they plot or engage in terrorism it seems premature to label someone as such.

Men and women are different. I know that’s considered a radical or old fashioned idea but men behave differently. Might even think differently. Blame it on the so-called environment or on genetics. I don’t care but I think it’s a bit of both.

And how much terrorism have these incels done? The only thing I’m aware of is that Canadian event.

Life can be difficult, I didn’t even get a warrantee.

Are there clubs/bars deliberately full of sexually frustrated ‘incels’. Like a ‘we can’t get sex club’? This seems somewhat counter productive.

All ‘Involuntary Virgins’ are misogynists? Huh? Perhaps the first step would be if they don’t hang out together? And stop being misogynists.

Um. Never Mind.

I don’t think I’ve ever been called a loser(except the times I called it to myself. Happens to everyone). But if I started an angry ‘club’, because I can’t fix what I think I’m somehow entitled to, well…you get Incels. It’s darn right silly.

And they started a club.

OK.

I’m involuntary bad at playing music.

I’m a IBAPM

I’m trying to fix it. I have horrible hearing that I don’t blame on others. I may have some other qualities that may allow me to power through it. (Math, logic, and a bit of determination, I seek help and practice). Maybe someday I will put able to play a few songs. It’s something that I would dearly love to be able to do. It means a lot to me. I don’t blame others that are good at it.

And I’m surely not violent about it (would get expensive, and quite contrary to my goal).

I’m quite a liberal guy but ‘incels’, getting violent? Well that’s gonna help a lot. What a combo! Everyone loves violent horny people.[sub]there are probably a few web sites for that[/sub] :rolleyes:

:eek:

Stuff like that and the gore sites does challenge my commitment to free speech. That’s pretty heinous to write and trolling or not it’s dangerous.

Not virgin shaming, but serial killer and notorious limpdick Andrei Chikatilo did kill a bunch of hookers that laughed at him for not being able to get a boner… Of course that was part of that whole Russia thing.

Men, in general (and I emphasize the qualifiers here) tend to be more likely to express anger outward. Women tend to express it inward. My guess is that it’s a combination of innate tendencies and societal conditioning. That why it’s mostly women who starve themselves to death or cut themselves, and it’s mostly men who become spree killers. Of course, there are exceptions, plus a hefty dose of very miserable people who kill themselves. It’s certainly not the whole answer.

There are a definitely men who espouse violence towards women. In the interest of not getting too sidetracked, there are sub-cultures that espouse a man keeping a woman in her place that are OK with using violence to do that. That doesn’t mean those sub-cultures condone murder, but violence against women is more common than I think you realize.

I think society would be better off if we could discourage angry young men from taking that final step to become terrorists.

I think there is some truth here. Men, in general, seem a lot less fussy about the conditions under which sex takes place.

I also think high standards is part of the incel problem - they don’t just want a girl, they want a supermodel. They won’t “settle” for a “fat chick” or someone who isn’t super pretty or whatever - nevermind that the woman in question is also “settling” for someone less than ideal because these guys don’t ever consider the other person’s viewpoint. There is a distinct lack of empathy with these yahoos.

That’s also some of stuff behind the notion of acid-attacks and ruining the beauty of a woman - since looks are what they mainly value they assume that a maimed woman would be a female incel and hated and scorned forever. It’s behind the notion that if they rape another man’s woman that man will reject that woman - no, that’s not a given. Plenty of men have married women that were raped before or while they knew them. Plenty of women have less than ideal looks and secure a mate (as noted in the prior paragraph, it’s probably easier for a less than ideal looking woman to get a mate than for a less than an ideal man).

Again, lack of empathy - they simply don’t comprehend that other people value other things than they do.

While I don’t lend this the weight you do I agree virgin shaming needs to end. For that matter, celibacy shaming needs to end. People need to be as free to say “no” to sex as to say “yes”. People should not be mocked if they’re between relationships or even just, for whatever reason, haven’t had opportunities to have sex with other people. Too much emphasis on sex and “scoring” is not healthy for human beings. Yes, sex is important. It’s not the only important thing.

I question if combining people with similar dysfunctions is really the best tactic here. It also seems to be edging back to putting the onus on women to “solve” a problem with a category of men, although I don’t think that was your intention.

^ This.

Your statement represents the thought process of what I’d call a healthy, sane man. The problem is, I don’t think these guys fit that category.

Yes, some of these guys are violent.

Elliot Rodger killed six and injured fourteen

Other men associated with both the “can’t get laid” crowd and violence include Chris Harper-Mercer, Rusty Houser, Seung-Hui Cho, and a little digging can uncover more. The death tolls vary, but all them I just name killed at least a couple people.

I don’t think lack of sex is the only explanation for their actions - after all, most guys who aren’t getting laid don’t get violent. Frustrated, sure, but not violent. I think there’s more at work here than just that, but sexual frustration seems to be a part of these guys’ dysfunction.

Again - lack of empathy. You understand on a gut level that other people are people such as yourself and no more compelled to serve you than you are compelled to serve them. Also, you understand that it’s actually normal for human beings to have time periods during which they aren’t having sex with other people. Shaming people for not having sex is like shaming them for being constipated - it happens. Or rather, “it” doesn’t happen for awhile. If it makes you uncomfortable there are steps you can take to remedy the situation, although none of them are guaranteed to work instantly.

That seems a key difference between a guy like yourself and an incel - you have empathy. They don’t. They’re emotionally stuck on the toddler level of “I WANT! GIMME!” That’s annoying enough in a toddler (and toddlers are known to hit people when they don’t get what they want) but it’s sad and pathetic in a grown man.

The other thing is that they seem completely unwilling to take any responsibility for their problems. No, not everything is the fault of the individual but emotionally mature human beings - such as yourself - can self-reflect and ask themselves “am I contributing anything to this probelm?” and take steps to fix their own flaws. These guys can’t seem to to that - they seem convinced they’re perfect and everyone else is the problem.

Yeah, but I’d think it grand if we could somehow intervene BEFORE they kill someone.

I object to the “if they can’t handle a little bit of poking fun” part. That’s the tactic of a bully. If someone is upset by a joke made at their expense, or offended by an unflattering portrayal in the media, the empathetic response is not “what’s the matter, can’t you take a joke?”

I’ve been following the incel movement for some years through Dave Futrelle’s blog “We Hunted the Mammoth”. The thing that strikes me is that incels see women as trophies, objects to win, and not as real human beings with their own aspirations. There have been frequent calls to take away a woman’s right to vote, to work, and to choose their own mate. And that’s just the start. Redistribution of sex has been called for in incel circles long before it hit the mainstream with https://www.nytimes.com/2018/05/02/opinion/incels-sex-robots-redistribution.html. However, the incels are not looking any further than redistributing actual women and not sex robots.

This metaphor works doubly well. Folks who are focusing so heavily on “STOP THE VIRGIN-SHAMING” are the equivalent of folks who respond to the 2015 terror attacks in France by blaming Charlie Hebdo.

NO.

Virgin-shaming is no more responsible for Incel terrorism than Hebdo was responsible for ISIS terrorism. The murderers are responsible for their own actions, full stop; and while Hebdo and virgin-shamers might be assholes, it’s really, really problematic to respond to murders by scolding mere assholes.


BigT, you object to the comparison between Incel and Al Qaeda. You’re wrong. Mostly.

The way in which the comparison falls apart is that Incel is (AFAICT vastly less funded and vastly less hierarchical and vastly less organized in general than Al Qaeda (or ISIS or Al Shabob or the Klan or Atomwaffen etc etc.)

But that’s not what I was talking about. The comparison holds true in that for both terrorist groups, the idiots who stand on the sidelines and cheer is much, much bigger than the terrorists who actually commit murder or other violence. And the ones who take that final step of committing violence are egged on by their online and offline supporters, who create a community in which such violence is normalized and celebrated.

There are no innocent members of an Incel community (which is another way the analogy falls apart–an Al Qaeda madrasah may have kids sent there by parents and may therefore have innocent members). The folks who never move beyond posting misogynistic atrocities are crucial to the development of the folks who do.

Incels are partly a consequence of the Pick-Up Artist phenomenon not getting laughed out of town the moment Mystery first raised his furry-hatted peacocking head. The “movement” got quite a lot of press, both good and bad, and fed the whole mentality we see now.

So, about the same as in the general population, then…
And nothing precludes someone being both minority and racist - I’ve seen some of the foulest crap spewed by Indian incels about black men, for instance. I’d be interested in a survey about what percentage of that “minority-race” is from one of India or China, given their demographics.

Doesn’t it seem that an incel, one layer under the raging misogyny, is a hurt little boy with zero self-esteem? Who has found an internet nest of similar others who together make up a satisfying narrative which comfortably excludes ever confronting this truly unpleasant fact?

Blaming others for your failures and griefs is something many men seem to do with facility. Deciding that violence is the cure is even more skewed to the masculine side.

What’s to be done about these frustrated (and from what I can tell, deservedly so) males? I guess castration isn’t going to make a comeback any time soon …
Incels are one of the ugliest faces of misogyny. Since empathy is the only cure I can see, and that’s the last thing they would choose themselves, I don’t feel a lot of hope.

To a large extent, Yes. They can’t get laid because they are angry, and they are angry because they can’t get laid. The Incel movement comes about because you can access the Internet from your basement. So you can establish contact with other angry losers who can’t get laid, and talk each other into thinking it is women’s fault that you are an angry loser who can’t get laid.

I am not aware of many ways. Their assertions that they deserve sex with a supermodel is met AFAICT with scorn and derision, at least outside of other incels. “Virgin shaming” is almost the opposite - they are mocked for not getting laid. Women aren’t mocked for not screwing them.

Again, IMO not very much. I don’t see that they are given a pass very much at all - people tend to be either derisive towards or repulsed by their rhetoric. I would say they get about as much of a pass as any other angry loser posting from his basement. Society doesn’t say “well, he’s got a point - women should feel obligated to seek you out”. It says “playing WoW all night and complaining that women find you creepy isn’t going to get you laid - try getting out of the house and not being such a creeper once in a while”.

Because they haven’t killed anyone yet, and most of them are too socially disorganized to leave the house, let alone commit terrorism.

Society saying “we gotta get you laid so you don’t shoot anybody” is enabling.

Regards,
Shodan

I agree that I worded that poorly, and may have to re-think that. Really, as a left leaning moderate, I do have sympathy for all. I do think that they should get help before becoming violent. But the very concept of becoming violent because you can’t find a girlfriend is totally foreign to me. It’s so self defeating I just don’t get it. And trust me, I’ve been there. I was terribly awkward and shy as a young man. I worked on it and fixed it.

People are born with horrible deformities and diseases. Born into abject poverty or abusive homes. But ‘incels’ are a thing? Some sort of movement? At that point, my sympathy runs a bit thin. Perhaps because I’ve been there. For a longer time than most.

… Interesting, this board is now changing a double space to a single space after a period. Makes it harder to read IMHO.

Years ago I listened to an audiobook that talked about a three-level response to Al Qaeda and their ilk. Modifying that for Incels, I’d describe three approachs:

  1. Police Action. For the folks who are making plans for violence, that’s where we need to go; and we need to treat these fuckers the same as we’d treat any other terrorists. High level federal law enforcement needs to step up their game. This addresses the illness most directly, and requires targeting the fewest people.
  2. Network disruption. For the communities where Incels hang out, they need to not be comfortable places. Work to make these communities unavailable as long as they condone violent misogynistic fantasies. Speak up within them; don’t let those fantasies become normalized. This is a teamwork effort between law enforcement and private citizens, including folks who are active online and folks who are lowercase incels but not misogynistic and folks who manage online communities. This addresses a much larger group, and aims to prevent Incel community members from moving into the first category.
  3. Prevention. This is the largest effort. Sex Ed needs to add hugely to its consent component, making it clear that sexual health and safety necessitates making sure that everyone involved in a sexual encounter wants to be there. This is the rape culture piece, wherein we (primarily guys, since guys are the ones who are becoming Incels, and due to their fucked-up ideology they’re likelier to listen to other guys) talk a lot about how sexual attractiveness is something you DO, rather than something you’re OWED, and how not everyone can manage it any more than everyone can manage to play basketball well, but that doesn’t mean you murder the Lakers. There’s a shitload of work to do here, with hundreds of millions of young dudes across the world. And yes, knocking it off with virgin shaming is one tiny component of this work, but far from the primary component. The aim here is to prevent young, sexually frustrated dudes from moving into the second category.

So, the questions in the OP aren’t really mine, or how I’d phrase them anyway–I linked to the earlier conversation whence I copied them. (I was in a hurry last night when I wrote that OP, my wife was waiting for me to finish the post so we could watch Legion; I probably should’ve added more direct citation). I just wanted to clarify that for folks.

However, there’s something interesting here.

The question Kimstu asked was,

You say that “virgin shaming” is the opposite. But look at this thread! When confronted with the crimes of these “angry losers,” look how many people treat “virgin shamers” as somehow responsible for the emotional status and self-esteem of these angry losers.

Are virgin shamers primarily women? I dunno, never having encountered them even in my loneliest and chastest days. But if they are, then in this thread there are people holding women responsible for the emotional status of Incel jerks.

So true. It’s almost like ‘incels’ think everyone but them is winning the lottery, and where’s their cut? And attractiveness comes in many, many forms. It’s not just physical features.

Every couple is different, and different from each other. A woman may be rich, and the guy handsome. A guy may be very funny and look like a fence post, the woman attractive and dull. And while I think, most couples are somewhat or mostly similar, all long time successful couples gain something from the strength of their partner in an area that they may be lacking.

For instance, my Wife is a great planner. I’m a task master. It works.

I said the same thing in the Pit thread when this subject came up. Unless I’m misunderstanding the question in the OP, why is it a mystery why this particular issue causes more men than women to resort to violence? Men are more violent than women across the board. We see this in most all primate species, and we’re not special in that regard. Socialization might have some impact on this, but the most parsimonious explanation is that there is a biological root that is the main cause.