I do, too. I rarely ask people about their relationship status or kids because I don’t like putting people on the spot. If they mention an SO or kids, I am willing to follow that lead, but I agree that we over emphasize romantic involvement and also act like it’s so easy to get and maintain quality relationships.
That’s only sort of true; it’s a self-imposed definition of loserdom in that nobody else knows they’re virgins, and these guys are drinking the Kool-Aid that they’re losers based on dumb-ass commentary.
Not that it’s not really easy to fall into; as someone who lost their virginity late myself, it was really easy to beat myself up about it, until I realized that I had passed on some opportunities- either because they were drunk, emotionally distraught, not my type, etc… and that fundamentally I was more satisfied with myself for NOT losing it than I would have been had I done so. And I also realized that 100% of people who I hadn’t told were assuming that I was not a virgin and was just like everyone else.
That doesn’t mean that I was happy about that state of affairs, but it does mean that I didn’t view myself as quite the loser I would have otherwise.
Every time I browse an incel thread, I walk away with the impression that these guys thrive on feeling marginalized. They have a narrative that informs how they see the world, and that narrative gives structure and meaning to their lives…in effect, filling the void that normal interests and aspirations should fill. At that point, the pathology has nothing to do with them not having a girlfriend. It’s about them using hatred and self-loathing as a reason to give up themselves and the rest of society.
I also suspect that most become convinced they are destined to incelness from a ridiculously young age. Not after years and years of trying to master the art of romance. Not after years and years of being rejected. To me, this suggests external factors have less to do with their issues than internal ones. If you start out in life thinking the worse about yourself and other people, then you’re probably going to take perceived slights harder than others. The thoughtless but non-malicious actions of your peers will register as mortal wounds. If you start out in life with a fixed mindset, you’re not going to try to improve yourself or learn from your mistakes. You will think there’s no point because everything is set in stone.
There also seems be a lot of fixation with facial features in incel threads; makes me think some of these guys are struggling with body dismorphia. These guys will post pics of themselves and often I just see a perfectly average person. Nothing that suggests the hideousness that they claim denies them a chance at love.
Yes, it is.
I’m not really of the opinion that society should bend over backwards to help these people, any more than it should to help white supremacists. (With whom they honestly share a lot of commonalities.) It’s just that when we’re talking about how such people come to be how they are, their opinion that their status and worth is tied to their sexual activity happens to be a major factor, if not the only factor.
And, again, I don’t expect anybody to be impressed by their concerns, but if you want to know how these guys get started on the path to believing that women exist only to be sex toys, then there you go.
There is something about dating, sex and relationships that makes nearly everyone - of every political stripe - adopt a very ‘conservative’ viewpoint (“conservative” isn’t quite the word I want to use, because it entails all kinds of political connotations, but I can’t think of a better term at the moment):
Essentially:
“You are responsible for your own success”
“Other people do not owe you anything”
“People have the right to discriminate in race/appearance/etc. according to their preferences”
“Even if you are disadvantaged, you still bear the sole responsibility of improving yourself to get the success you want”
“People shouldn’t get handouts or affirmative action” (this is more like a Social Darwinism thing than conservatism)
“This is a meritocracy”
“Those who have much will get more, those who have little will get even less” (virtuous cycle vs. vicious cycle)
Lots of groups thrive on feeling marginalized. Christianity often claims to be under seige. In America. Christianity. It is indeed a fact that the victim mentality is appealing - it justifies damn near anything if you can paint yourself as the underdog under siege by enemies. And so yes, all of womankind is a very handy enemy if you want to be justified in raping people and such.
“Start out life” - this isn’t something you’re born with. But it is something that you get exposed to very early, and certainly by middle school a boy is increasingly aware that he’s single and, if he’s not a jock or something, that he’s very possibly a loser. By high school the fact that it’s better to have a girlfriend than not is cemented.
What makes an incel is never abandoning the ideas we’re all exposed to in middle and high school. Which is not to say that adult society lacks these ideas - the idea that the hero gets the girl is everywhere. But adult adults find other things to worry about. Childish adults…less so.
It’s easier to play the victim if your malady is based on things you can’t possibly change. Plus it’s pretty easy to imagine that the devil woman female conspiracy is holding humanity so such high standards that it’s Brad Pitt or nothing.
Weird. I don’t agree with most of those.
Here are mine:
[ul]
[li]Your body belongs to you. No one gets to use it without your permission.[/li]
[li]You don’t get to use anyone else’s body without their permission.[/li]
[li]Women are actually people.[/li]
[li]There are many ways of being, many ways of forming relationships and families, and no “right way” for everyone. You have to figure out your own path.[/li]
[li]Relationships can be hard work.[/li]
[li]Communities are important.[/li][/ul]
But we can see that it’s not Brad Pitt or nothing. That’s why ywtf’s idea of body dysmorphia anxieties playing a role makes some sense to me.
(Not that it’s necessarily helpful to point out that schlubs get dates, too, since that can be turned into “See? Even schlubs get dates, but not MEEE!”)
Be careful what you wish for. My family, small as it is, never brings the subject up, and never has. It’s bad enough when your romantic desires never resonate with a partner. When your own family never had any hope for you, it’s pretty tough to do all the work, all the learning, all the trying, and all the commiserating by yourself.
Yup, a person with a non-incel mindset would see hope in the fact that schlubs get dates. “If he can find love, then so can I one day.” A non-incel would also figure out that if schlubs get laid, there must be more to attraction than looks; personality goes a long way. Incels refuse to accept this because that would mean looking critically at their own behavior. It’s easier to just call women stupid and shallow than consider there may be a good reason that women avoid them.
Preventing this distorted mindset from taking hold probably will require looking for signs of it in young boys and then targeting them for counseling.
Agreed that your best bet for eliminating the movement would be to alter mindsets before, well, before the minds set.
Hmmm, I don’t know about that. Some people undoubtedly are born with personalities that set them up for self-esteem problems. They might not be born seeing themselves as hopeless losers, but they may be predisposed to that view if they have a certain temperament. Otherwise, I agree with you.
That, and preventing/limiting exposure to the incel community that would validate and reinforce that mindset.
I have a pretty strong suspicion/belief that the Internet is responsible for this phenomenon by allowing these guys to gather online and fester together, thus spreading and amplifying these thoughts and beliefs. Back in say… 1990, a guy like this might think things like this, but only in his own mind, and probably not to such an extreme degree overall.
It’s that same free exchange of ideas, only this time in a shitty, misguided way.
Robot Arm,of course nothing is stopping you from broaching the topic yourself. That way, people willknow you are not only open to talking about relationships, but that you are receptive to advice.
Believe me, I am way happier about myself now than I was when I was a 20-something, back when I would get interogated about who I was crushing on and dating on by everyone trying to catch up with me or trying to get to know me better. Now I only get asked those types of questions from people who don’t know me that well. People who know me have finally figured out that line of questioning bugs the shit out of me.
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I think it is more a case of you not making yourself clear. I even said up front that I might misunderstand you, but you opted to act like my mother’s teacup Pomeranian rather than clarify yourself. You go ahead and blame your audience, though.
[quote=“wonky, post:168, topic:816002”]
Weird. I don’t agree with most of those.
Here are mine:
[ul]
[li]Your body belongs to you. No one gets to use it without your permission.[/li]
[li]You don’t get to use anyone else’s body without their permission.[/ul][/li][/quote]
Well said, though I might use consent instead of permission.
[quote]
[ul][li]Women are actually people.[/ul][/li][/quote]
As are men - this works both ways.
Pretty much spot on; again, well said.
I keep thinking about The Sorrows of Young Werther and its copycat suicides.
Synopsis: Goethe wrote a book where a teenage dude had a crush on a girl, but she fell in love with another dude, so young Werther ineptly shoots himself and slowly dies. There were several copycat suicides across Europe after the book became a bestseller.
I suspect that if Goethe’s novel had shown young Werther murdering the family of the girl, there would’ve been copycat murders; or if young Werther had just driven a team of horses through a girls’ school picnic, that would’ve happened.
I don’t think the Internet is the key, but I could be wrong.
I fear that a detailed reply would drag this thread even further in the direction of the original Incel thread that was deemed unsatisfactory. But I will say that I’m glad you’re happier with yourself and have friends who recognize and respect your boundaries.
I’m of the same mind. Pre-internet, hate-prone boys who struggled socially were left in isolation to stew in their own immature resentments…until maybe they either grew up and realized life isn’t as bad as they thought. There was not a whole a lot of voices in their ear egging on that negative self talk, which meant increased odds that time and maturity would win in the end.
Now, with the internet, the same guys aren’t truly isolated; they can find each other and nurse their resentments together in a 24/7 echo chamber. When one of them becomes a Elliot Roger, they can gather around the fire and analyze his story, making him out to be a hero for their “cause”. This wasn’t really possible prior to the internet to the same extent it is now.