Not quite what you wanted Coldfire?
OK, here it is. The message in the drug threads was “Hey asshole get out of our private lives. Anything we want to do that doesnt hurt anyone else is fine and no business of the government.”
But NO! When I take that EXACT SAME THINKING and use it with incest it seems that some people dont agree.
Why is that Coldfire?
I will answer this (and so will many others, no doubt).
First, you have to answer this question.
Do you SINCERELY fail to see why your analogy is invalid (to say the least), or do you want us to show you our superior logical skills?
Coldfire
Voted Poster Most Likely To Post Drunk
"You know how complex women are"
I used this analogy in regards to homosexuality once. I didn’t get any kind of response that debunked my analogy.
Then again, I wasn’t comparing it to drug use, and I wasn’t dealing with Coldfire.
“History will be kind to me, for I intend to write it.” -Winston Churchill
Hmmm . . lets see. Incest is a millennia-old societal taboo, marijuana proscriptions are mere decades old. There’s a fundamental difference right there.
But if it doesn’t harm anyone else, what’s wrong with incest?
AveB-dude, Rousseau, can y’all answer this?
-andros-
Hey I’m not saying ANYTHING is wrong with incest. You think your mom looks hot? Go for it, right? Why should there be anything wrong with incest is beyond me. Alls I know is I am applying the EXACT SAME standards to this as to the drug thing.
So if it seems wrong YOU tell ME. And if it does seem wrong maybe, just maybe you have to rethink your standards a little huh?
Er, no. Anything that occurs between two consenting adults that doesn’t harm anyone else is fine by me. What would I need to rethink?
-andros-
Yes. Woo hoo!
rocks
I think it is fair to say, that society (pick your Western country here) as a whole rejects incest as morally wrong. It is one of those things you just don’t do, just as stealing is. The tricky bit is of course, that there is no direct victim when an adult brother and sister decide to hit the sack together (excuse me while I vomit).
So one has to resort to reasoning, the skill of all memebers but AvenueB-dude, apparently.
The Reason:
Sex, no matter how protected, means a possibility of conception. A child born out of a brother and sister (to name an example of close genes) has a VERY high risk of being born with SERIOUS defects. Therefore, it is morally wrong to take the risk of conception, which is, in effect, the act of intercourse in itself.
This is exactly why an anlogy between incest and pot is wrong. You can’t accidently create a handicapped baby whilst smoking pot.
I am sure this will be enough.
Coldfire
Voted Poster Most Likely To Post Drunk
"You know how complex women are"
Here’s the deal, AvenueB:
I don’t like the idea of incest. It makes me go “ooh, ick, yucko, I would never do that.” If someone told me “hey, I like fucking my family members”, I’d put them on my “do not associate with this person” list. I think incest is repugnant and disgusting.
However, - and with the explicit caveat that anyone who has sex with a child, family or otherwise, should be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law - it doesn’t mean I think that the people who practice it should be thrown in jail. I think jail should be reserved for people who physically harm other people or their property without consent.
The same goes for people who like to fuck animals, or eat raw meat, or smear themselves with mayonaise, take pictures of it, and post it on the Web. These are all things that, at the very least, make me say “oh, ick”. But just because those activities get that response from me, doesn’t mean I think they should be outlawed. I think the law is too important to be used to enforce my personal taste.
Rousseau, I answered your question with my own opinion, but since I’ve already stated my opinion of your debating skills, I’ll re-post it here.
The only problem I have with incest is regarding the matter of reproduction, as intentionally attempting to produce deformed offspring is, to me, grotesque. That aside, fine, fuck your sister, I don’t care; personally, I think it’s disgusting.
Happy?
Esprix
Unless you’re pregnant.
And if you’re smoking pot while you’re pregnant, then hell, YOU’re probably handicapped too.
The REALISTIC problem with incest is that 99% of the time incest involves abused children, i.e. victims.
Marijuana = OK
Incest between consenting adults = OK
Well, yeah, TomH, but that would mean two separate things. Don’t smoke anything while you’re pregnant. It has nothing to do with the smoke being illegal.
Coldfire
Voted Poster Most Likely To Post Drunk
"You know how complex women are"
Well, I normally wouldn’t get involved in something like this, but my curiosity has been piqued. B-Dude, before this discussion goes any further, I think you should clarify your OP. It is not clear to me what your premise is.
Are you saying that committing incest is the same thing as using drugs that are illegal? If so, then I think we should distinguish between types of incest. There is incest between consenting adults, and there is incest in which one party is a child (and please, folks, no legalistic quibbles about what constitutes a “child”. The first time I hear somebody chortle, “Hey, if they’re big enough, they’re old enough…” I am going to trot right back over to Comments.)
Here is the dictionary definition of “incest” according to Webster’s Deluxe Unabridged (second edition, 1979): “Sexual intercourse between persons too closely related to marry legally.” And that’s it. This would seem to include sex between parents and their children, between aunts/uncles and their brother/sister’s children, between grandparents and their grandchildren, and between certain degrees of cousins. It would include stepfathers and stepmothers, half-sisters and brothers, step-sisters and brothers, adopted siblings, and in-laws.
Now, obviously, after 10,000 years of civilization, we have developed a body of law and custom that further defines what we mean by the word “incest”, and I think that we would like to hear you tell us what you mean when you use the word.
The word “incest” covers a lot of territory, as does the word “ethics”. By “ethics”, do you mean “laws”, or do you mean “the right or wrong thing to do”? Do you mean “ethical” or “legal”? Sometimes there’s a difference.
I am not aware, for starters, that sex between consenting adults who happen to be too closely related to marry is technically illegal. It may be unethical, but is it illegal? (I welcome enlightenment on this point.) If the cops catch me in bed with my stepfather (or stepmother), am I liable to be arrested (assuming that we are both of age)? For what?
It’s possible to use verbal shorthand in any discussion, as long as everybody concerned understands what all the secret code words mean.
In defence of incest… jeez, I never thought I’d ever catch myself saying/typing these words…
Let’s expand the view a little bit. Two sisters or brothers getting it on with eachother have very little chance of getting pregnant. Is that type of incest alright?
How about a brother and sister who have taken surgical/medical measures to prevent pregnancy? Surely that’s harmless.
The fact is, though most of us (myself included and at the top of the list) find incestuous behaviour very disturbing and perhaps unfathomable (is that a word?) it still deserves to be classified as a thing that two or more consenting adults do in the privacy of their own home and left at that.
Excluding certain parts of Alabama, Arkansa, and the Mississippi valley, most people know the consequences of an incestuous conception. They are the most likely to hightail it to the abortionist than anyone else contemplating the termination of an unwanted pregnancy. I would not worry too much about that type of conception going to full term and becoming a burden on society at large.
On a personal note, I’m fairly certain I once new a brother and sister who were… ummm, involved… but outside of that, they managed to run a very successful business together and donated time and money to worthwhile charities. I personally could not bring myself to persecute them in any way.
Yes, it is mostly a legal or custom taboo. Einstein’s second wife was both a first cousin and a second cousin. Their fathers were first cousins, their mothers were sisters.
As far as I know, the belief that children of incest are consistently damaged is mostly a myth.
rocks
A clarification: I wasn’t intending to defend incest, I only wanted to know whether it’s actually illegal anywhere, so that we can proceed discussing the OP, which seemed to be comparing and contrasting taking illegal drugs with committing incest. I would appreciate seeing some citations or links on the subject of whether incest is illegal, and if so, where, and what the penalties are.
I’m not interested in hearing people check in with opinions as to whether or not it’s “icky”, or in finding out how many people within the sound of my voice wouldn’t dream of doing it with a close relative, or even of discussing whether or not incest produces idiot offspring.
Just in whether it’s legal or not.
Thank you.
P.S. If we ever do get back to the OP, it could actually be interesting. Or maybe I’ll just go check out the exploding bird situation…
You’re right, RM. The incest taboo has held a number of different forms in different cultures throughout history. In some cultures, it was incumbernt upon an older family member to instruct a young person sexuallly. In some, aunts and uncles were fair game but first cousins weren’t. In most of the US, first cousins can legally marry.
As a general rule, in sex or anything, what we believe is what we believe here and now. It’s not set in stone, and it’s not always been this way.
CF, I think this is flawed:
Firstly, birth control more closely approaches 100% effectiveness than at any other point in human history. Secondly, as RM pointed out, the “VERY high risk” or “SERIOUS defects” is overblown and inaccurate. Fact is, the vast majority of the time, two healthy siblings will produce a healthy child.
I’ll get some numbers for you as soon as I can (hey, it’s the Pit, I can fire before I have ammo, right?).
-andros-
Exogamy and Incest Prohibitions
The Criminal Code of Canada and the State of Florida, for instance, specifically prohibit incest without regard to age.
Personally I have to go with the libertarian viewpoint here. As long as they’re consenting adults, I see no reason why such a practice should be illegal.
If Cecil Adams did not exist, we would be obliged to create Him.
Most U.S. states criminalize incest.
As an example, Virginia law, Code § 18.2-366, provides:
Per Va. Code § 20-38.1, the following marriages, inter alia, are prohibited:
Sexual intercourse between direct relations to the second degree (with a parent or grandparent) is thus a felony in Virginia.
Sexual intercourse between collateral relations (brother-sister) and ancestors in greater degree than the second is a misdemeanor.
Note that if you’re hot for your cousin, Virginia is the place to be.