Incest. Then and Now. What Attitude Is Correct?

I know all about the current views on child molestation and the current penalties there of and what is considered molestation but for some stupid reason, I happened to recall some stuff from decades before these laws were enacted and the epidemic began.

It made me wonder what psychologists would think of this stuff.

In my late teens, I happened to get hold of a Swingers paper, normally available to adults only. Among the interesting ads and pictures – mostly tiny printed ads – I found a section for incest. I recall it because it showed a nude girl of about 14 and she wanted to know if anyone else was interested in Daddy Love like she was and would like to join her and her Pop. Further on was a similar ad from a guy who was having consensual sex with his 20 year old daughter seeking those with equal interests.

I didn’t think much of it at the time, being more interested in the ads of single women seeking single partners for fun and frolic. (They all lived too far away.)

As years passed, I ran across something similar in college where a group of guys and girls in the student union were in an energetic discussion concerning the effect of voluntary sexual intercourse of a child with a parent. They had come across some reports somewhere by some who had traveled the back woods, often very isolated ‘hillbilly’ communities in Kentucky and Tennessee, said it was not unknown for some of the mountain people to have sex with their kids. The few kids he met who admitted to it said they enjoyed it and sex among siblings was not unusual until they found other contacts. He also mentioned finding some young children who were obviously mentally slow as a result.

Now, according to today’s outlook, such sexual contacts always screw up the kids, are always forced upon the unwilling child, and always produce some form of mental illness later on. According to what I’ve read and overheard over the years, perhaps not. Who is right?

I remember as a child, running into other boys and discussing the great mystery of sex and there would always be a few who bragged about having a teen sister who happily taught them all about it by doing it with them. Since it was always someone else’s sister and not our own, who we normally couldn’t stand at that age, we considered those guys lucky. I mean, they knew that rubbers really don’t squeak during intercourse! They drew accurate sand pictures of down there on girls, described how it felt and so on, so we believed them.

I even ran into a few stories later on about older brothers who had been asked by younger sisters to educate them in sex and did. No one seemed to particularly care, unless they knew of the sister in question and considered her a real dog and would not do her even with someone else’s equipment.

I know of two cases as fact. Now, years later, all involved seem happily married to different people, of course, are leading good lives and seem unaffected by it all.

So, what would psychiatrists think of such situations? Such sex in a family is considered morally wrong and against the law, even casual sex. I read a book called ‘Time Enough For Love,’ science fiction, by a very predominate author (either Heinlein or Clarke) dealing with virtual immortals who had lived for so long that they considered casual sex among family members as a means of bonding, affection and play.

I think I’d be surprised to find the book easily available today. The author, I noticed in reading his works, gradually started slipping in incest in his later books.

Today any form of sexual contact with a minor is considered molestation. Minors experimenting with other minors, especially in the same family, can be hauled off to the shrink and to jail. (At 13 I was happily touching and feeling the nude body of a 14 year old neighbor girl, who was doing the same to me, but no actual sex. She approached me. It was fun and neither of us grew up skewed mentally.)

So, are the psychiatrists correct or are their ‘diagnoses’ a slanted product of the pressure of the times. Something like the sudden and suspicious rash of shrinks pointing out to people, who had no knowledge of it before, that they had been molested as a child?

Then the change in public opinion. All of those years ago, no one cared if the sex was voluntary, though they did get involved if it was rape. They expected unrelated kids to experiment, with dads usually explaining the facts of life and condoms as soon as they discovered junior was no longer packing an empty gun and moms having chats with daughters who talking about boys a bit too much, becoming concerned about how they looked in shorts and stuffing their bras with tissue.

Now days if a kid talks too knowingly about sex in grade school, some other kid reports him to the teacher, who might investigate and send him to the shrink, who might not only call in the parents but HRS as well. Kids of 7 get suspended if caught kissing a girl of the same age. Heck, when I was in first through third, we did a lot of smooching on the cheeks with girls. If a kid is caught fooling with his girlfriend, even if of the same age, he can be arrested. If incest is discovered, well today they might as well hang up everything because even if voluntary, their lives are over once the cops, the news, the legal system, shrinks and HRS gets done with them. They might as well leave the country because it will follow them forever, what they have done.

What is the right reaction? I admit that I no longer know for sure. Forced is wrong. Is voluntary? What about if the ‘victim’ enjoys it? To what degree then is it wrong? Who should set the standards?

I had a quite notable Sociology professor in college that flatly stated, according to his research, that incest between brothers and sisters in their teens is almost commonplace. He also stated that it usually causes no harm for either of them in later life. I think that the ickiness of the topic means that it is not that well studied academically. I have heard antecdotal stories in my own family and others that support that it is common and no one is worse for the wear after the experimental epsiode. I would rank experimentaion in this manner as benign as long as both parties are willing.

No comment on the OP as such, but I’m pretty sure your SF author is Heinlein, not Clarke.

I seem to recall that many of the royal families from ancient Egypt, to the Greeks, to Nero, to the inbred monarchies of the 18th century all had brother-sister rulers or rulers-in-waiting.

The problem of hemophelia became the actual inspiration for all the anti-cousin marriage laws.
Can we imagine if that hadn’t happened?
It was not inevitable, after all, as many such marriages don’t “degrade” the stock, but simply replicate it.

Some tiger breeders decry the loss of variation in the breeding stock, but dog and horse breeders usually go the opposite direction.

I’ve heard the same thing about sexual exploration among young family members, usually because they know each other well enough to feel comfortable. A psych professor in college once said that nearly every male, before reaching 18, had a homosexual experience. This ranged from comparing peckers with friends, to comparison whacking off to the rarer actual anal intercourse. He explained that the last one was usually not a genuine homosexual act, but an act of curiosity to know what it felt like.

Like, of course every guy in class denied it and every girl looked and smirked at the guys but I recall comparing peckers when I found that my Willie could do something else besides stand up.

I knew boys when I was in my early teens who had sisters and told ‘us guys’ in secret when we clustered in our ‘club house’ how they spied on them, what they saw and so on. The guys from the poor areas, known as shanty town, bragged about getting girls their own age or younger in the forest and feeling them up. Some even reported that their older sisters had taught them a lot about sex.

It was just accepted. If you got caught, Maw and Paw could react by giving the two a whipping and some punishment, or sit them down and have a careful talk with them about why they should not screw relatives. We didn’t go screaming to the cops over such minor things back then. Heck, there was a spot a few miles from my house where a development was going to go in, but all they did was cut dirt roads that ended in the trees and left. After any Saturday, me and my friends would hop our bikes and ride down there to find used rubbers, empty beer cans, the occasional set of panties and a bra or two. Now and then it was a big thing to find a couple of unopened rubber packs or some guys underwear tossed in among the pines.

When I was in junior high, at 13, I knew guys who said they occasionally did their sister. There were some rumors floating around about a girl or two who did their fathers, but I could never confirm them. I knew a lot of girls who used to haunt the college in the next city to date college guys and they bragged about getting laid by real men. Of course today, these girls being 14 through 17 would get the guys, being 19 through 24 into a lot of hot water, but they’re seeking out older guys was approved.

I think a country western singer married her 20 something husband when she was only 14. The one who sings ‘Coal Miners Daughter.’ When I was 25 and living in a low rent apartment complex, I had this very cute and very hot little 15 year old chasing me around and it was real hard to refuse her. I mean, she turned on the heat something terrible!

A friend of mind says that while he has driven through (I think) West Virginia, he has seen billboards with “public service announcements” cautioning the residents that they should not screw their relatives. Basically, denouncing incest. He swears he has seen this. Which makes you wonder…it must be a problem in West Virginia.

When we were young, in the 12-14 era, my best friends two sisters, my friend, and I used to play strip poker (no pun intended) and various games such as spin-the-bottle together on a regular basis. He used to say he felt a little awkward about it, but one of the girls was only a step sister, so I could always talk the three of them into it. My friend grew up to be successful and happy, his blood sister grew up normal and happy, but the step sister and me were both pretty crazy for some time. She still is, I feel alot better about life in general.

Todays thinking would have us believe that the brother and sister would be the problem ones, but they always remained close and both are happily married, and not to each other. Don’t get me wrong, the step’s and my problems had nothing to do with sexual abnormalities, we were just way too wild and partied way too hard for way too long, sex was one of the few things we did that I consider healthy.

I have forgotten my original point, but I think there used to be a don’t ask, don’t tell policy and that is probably the way it should still be among siblings who are underage, unless signs of abuse are present. As for a father to engage in intercourse with an underage daughter, I cannot imagine that being normal or healthy. I sometimes stumble upon my daughter in the middle of changing or bathing and she occaisionally stumbles upon me and it’s no big deal and not uncomfortable, but there is the knowlege on her part that she is safe and her body is her own and no one can touch her, period. I believe that a father could put an overwhelming amount of pressure on his daughter to do anything he wanted her to do, because little girls have a natural desire to please their dads. Any man that would use that power to get his daughter to have sex with him is degrading himself and his family.

What message would he be giving his daughter by engaging in that kind of activity with her? The message that if she wants to please a man, she has to touch his dick. I could’nt imagine this attitude would get his girl very far in life, most people don’t respect women with this attitude. Albeit it’s a good attitude for an escort or a dancer, but even these women get alot farther when they use thier brains and figure out that a man can be played better if he is teased into thinking he may get it if he spends alot then giving it up and then asking for something. Gosh, that sounded harsh…

My final point is that I know girls and have had serious relationships with girls and women who claimed to have slept with thier fathers and they were all wacked out. My experience says it makes them feel sex is all they had to offer, and although it was always good with them, they were very lacking in many other aspects.

“Nuff said!” some dumbass t-shirt…

http://www.geocities.com/HotSprings/Spa/7173/ph-abuse.htm
Needs2know

Um, contrary to popular belief, hemophilia was NOT caused by inbreeding, but a mutation in Queen Victoria’s genetic makeup…probably from her father, the Duke of Kent.

Because her offspring all married into other royal houses, that’s how it spread. It was just coincidence that some were related. After all-Alexandra of Russia was a carrier, and married her second cousin, Tsar Nicholas. Their son was a hemophiliac. Her elder sister, Princess Victoria of Hesse, married Louis of Battenberg, a first cousin. Victoria turned out NOT to be a carrier.
Read Queen Victoria’s Gene: Hemophilia and the Royal Family by the Potts Brothers.

BTW, it was Loretta Lynn who married an older man. I believe he died recently, and they were actually very devoted to one another. I forget his name, though…wasn’t it Dooly, or something?

I have no idea what the incidence of incest may be, but I do recall something I heard or read some time ago, namely that every single mammalian species will copulate and or breed with close blood relatives. Humans have a societal and religious stigma against doing so, and occasionally very good medical reasons as well, but the urge itself is apparently completely natural.

I can’t believe you guys think that teenaged boys are telling the truth when they claim to have slept with their sisters. That is just the sort of idiot thing teenaged boys say to shock and impress their friends. I’m sure it happens sometimes, but I don’t believe it is anywhere near as common as you are making it out to be. If it were, why wouldn’t girls be telling these stories? I have had some pretty frank discussions about sex with teenaged girls and young women in their twenties, and while I have known a few who were molested by their brothers I have never met a single one who claimed to have engaged in consensual sex with a sibling.

Guinastasia, I have to hand it to you - you could turn any thread into a discussion about Tsar Nicholas. (Quick, did you make a reference to him in a Jack Dean Tyler circumcision thread???)

Actually, there is a greater chance of offspring manifesting ANY recessive gene, sex-linked or not, if you mate with a close relative. Hemophilia is an example of this:

Let’s say you have a mother who is a hemophilia carrier. Her sons have a 50% chance of catching the disease, no matter who she marries (each son inherits one of her two X chromosomes). She could pass the gene down to her daughters (A 50% chance, again) and they could have hemophiliac sons by this same process.

OK, now let’s say you have a hemophiliac man. If he marries a normal woman, none of his sons will have the disease (since they inherit his Y chromosome, which does not carry the disease). His daughters will all inherit a hemophilia allele, and they become carriers and can pass the disease onto their sons (as I described above). However, if he marries a woman who is a hemophila carrier, not only will his sons have a 50% chance of having the disease, his daughters have a 50% chance as well. Thus, his offspring have a 50% chance, rather than a 25% chance with a normal woman.

How would two people like this meet? It’s fairly rare that they meet by chance, but if they’re close relatives, that chance increases a whole bunch. So, don’t screw around with your brother if he’s a hemophiliac, kiddies!!!

(Guin, you may recall that Prince Leopold was a hemophiliac and had a daughter, who was obviously a carrier, since she passed on the disease to a few of her sons.)

I believe that his (nick)name was Mooney and they married when she was 13. I have nothing else to add to this discussion! :slight_smile:

(I would have, if I had posted in JDT’s thread! :D)

Well true, very true-but it really wasn’t caused by inbreeding in and of itself-after all, Queen Victoria’s parents weren’t related. She and her husband, however, were first cousins-two daughters out of five were carriers, and 1 son out of four.
(BTW, if a hemophiliac man marries a woman who is the daughter of a hemophiliac-I believe ALL of their children will have the disease-male AND female-who will die upon menstruation.)

The royal carriers, as far as I know:
Princess Alice, Grand Duchess of Hesse and two of her daughters-
Alix and Irene. Alix married Nicholas of Russia and Irene married Prince Henry of Prussia-the Kaiser’s brother. Her daughter Victoria did NOT inherit it. Alice had two other daughters-Elizabeth (Ella) and Marie (May). May died at the age of four, and Ella, who married Grand Duke Sergei of Russia, never had any children-it’s rumored her husband was a homosexual. Whatever he was, he was also a big jerk.
So we’ll never know if Ella or May were carriers.
Of Alice’s two sons, Ernst Ludwig-Ernie was fine, but Frederick William (Frittie) was a hemophiliac. He died when he was two after falling out of a window.

Princess Beatrice, Princess Henri of Battenberg. One, or maybe two of her sons inherited the gene-one was Prince Maurice. Alexander, Drino did not, but I don’t remember if her other son had it. Her daughter, Victoria Eugenie (Ena) did inherit it-she married King Alfonso XIII of Spain. I believe all but one of her sons was a hemophiliac. The one who was not was the father of the current King, Juan Carlos.
Prince Leopold, Duke of Albany-had two children, a girl and a boy born after Leopold’s death when he fell down a staircase at Cannes. His son could not inherit the gene, his daughter did. She was Queen Victoria’s last grand child to die-in the 1980s, I believe.

I can remember the FABULOUS FURRY FREAK BROTHERS magazine skit where they said SPEND MORE TIME WITH YOUR FAMILY & showed them having sex.

About a year or so ago, a psychologist published a meta-analysis of many articles on childhood sexual abuse. He concluded that in many cases people who experienced sex as minors reported that it had no effect on them, or that the experience had been positive–even in the case of incest.

The publication caused a firestorm of protest directed toward the American Psychological Association (in one of whose journals it had been published.) It was even denounced by Dr. Laura, I believe.

The fear was that the information would be used to legitimize the sexual abuse of children. The APA even felt that they had to publish a statement that they didn’t endorse this view.

I thought it was rather cowardly of them. All the article really showed was that the definitions of childhood sexual experiences in research are so broad and so different from one study to the next that it is really difficult to draw a single conclusion.

but I love the fringe of opinion.

I like the frankness with which people say it’s ok, or at least ignorable, to have incestuous relationships. I couldn’t agree more. The problem with incest is the same thing as spanking a child: the potential for abuse is huge but probably not as huge as some would expect.

Sex feels good. I think everyone should have sex all the time; maybe they’d be too buy to fight…ah, ok, maybe not, but that doesn’t change the fact that sex is fun as hell. Its a shame there is such a huge stigma attached to it, and ESPECIALLY between family members.

[I can’t believe I’m saying this.]

Family members hopefully know each otehr well, and presumably trust each other. What better person to have sex with? Aren’t those the qualities we look for in mates anyway? As far as I understood, the problem with inbreeding was to avoid retarded children…but I don’t know, I haven’t investigated and I am not attracted to my mother so its never been an issue to me.

So anyway, I’d like to hear from someone in this thread who DOESN’T think it’s not ok to do this…

OK, sorry to hijack the thread with a little genetics lesson. My thoughts are a bit iffy on the incest subject. Like I’ve been saying, preventing diseases is a great reason not screw your close relatives; however, I don’t think that pedophilia is always 100% terrible, horrible, those who do it should have their balls ripped off, etc. Its pretty icky, but it warrants further study.

(C’mon, someone, give me a research grant.)

Me neither.

Yes, inbreeding makes genetic failures more likely. That goes for animals and humans alike. But I for one like to think there are a few things that separate us from the animal kingdom by now.

Should you love and trust your family members? Absolutely.
Should you have sex with them? Absolutely not.

If those two questions are answered in any other way, you are confusing love and lust in a very disturbing manner.