Independents: Why you should not vote for McCain

Based solely on what policies they would pursue, and what kind of president they would be, I would be OK with either Obama or McCain winning, as I agree with some of the policies from both of them, and they both seem like decent guys (McCain’s recent behavior has reduced my respect for him, but, overall, let’s assume he’ll be a decent president).

Nevertheless, if you are on the fence as to whom to vote for, I think you should vote for Obama.

The reason is that if McCain gets elected, it will send a signal, a loud and clear signal, to both the Republicans and the Democrats that, as long as you pick the right candidates and run a sufficiently skilled campaign, you can get elected to power even if you can screw the country when governing (taking it into unnecessary wars, increasing government spending like there’s no tomorrow, damaging the economy, flouting cherished rights like habeas corpus, removing bans against torture, etc)

If the Republicans win, what incentive will they have next time they are in power (White house + Congress) to not screw the country up even more than they have this time?

Losing both Houses of Congress (with perhaps worse numbers to come in Nov.) should – if they have any sense – have scared/scare them, even if McCain wins. Do you think that is totally insufficient to teach them a lesson (whichever lesson they may need)?

It’s not totally insufficient, but it is, IMO, mostly insufficient. Losing both Houses and the presidency will be the slap in the face they need to get their party in order.

As you can see from the current campaign tactics employed by McCain, they have barely changed from 2000 & 2004 (he’s even using the same people). And this is given the fact that Republicans know that they have lost both Houses of Congress. Clearly it is not enough. They have not changed.

They need to lose both the White House and Congress if we ever hope for the sane Republicans to take back the party (to its ideals of fiscal responsibility, etc, and away from the current Bush/Cheney/Rove tactics and policies)

I am a man who started out supporting McCain but eased away when the candidate started courting the religious right. The thing that keeps me leaning towards Obama is the Supreme Court and how it would be configured in four years if McCain were to win.

This fact in and of itself scares a lot of moderates as well. You may be one of them. Personally, I think the US would be fools to elect a republican again, further affirming this is a dem year. The other thing is Obama has set up an enormous ground game by congressional district. If we can’t pull it off this year, it would be a travesty.

That’s the major factor keeping me as a likely McCain vote.

Ha ha ha! Send a signal? Teach them a lesson? Get their party in order? Are you people delusional? The Republicans have their party exactly where they want it! It will never change. They get to gut the country, call Democrats pansies, and keep stealing elections. They can go as hard right as they want, and they know they won’t lose those voters who are more or less reasonable people but consider themselves Republican. All they have to do is keep playing to the lizard brain with fear and half the country will keep voting for them. And with about half the vote, they can easily steal any election. From now on, Republicanism means Bush/Rove. If you think you’re a Republican, but don’t like those guys, well, you’d better become a Democrat or start another party, because there’s no room for historical rational conservatism in that party.

Bolding mine. I fixed your typo.

Thanks :smiley:

Any time! It really is amazing how nimble we are for a huge organization.

This is another very strong reason why independents should vote for Obama, and not vote for McCain. When you elect a president, you don’t elect just one man, but his entire administration. And while I’m still of the opinion that McCain is considerably smarter and a better human being than Dubya (which isn’t really saying much) he’s going to keep a lot of the same people Bush appointed, you can be sure of it.

Most menacingly, he’ll probably keep the ones who rigged the Florida elections and the ones who have turned the Dept. of Justice into a political arm of the White House.

Here’s the problem. Probably in four years they can complete their conversion of the Dept of Justice, which means it will be impossible to get an investigation at the Federal level for rigging elections, if you are a Republican. The election riggers will have a free hand.

As a result, your vote won’t mean a thing, any more than a Democrat’s vote will.

Let me add to this.

If President of the USA were like, say, governor of Missouri, voting for McCain could make some sense. (I fear he’s a little too at risk of age-related silliness & far too happy with the idea of killing Iranians, but other than that, yeah, I could live with him as POTUS.) But the Presidency still has a lot of patronage attached to it, including judicial appointments that don’t end with his term.

If you’re a moderate, or at least not ideologically committed to either party’s platform, then it makes sense not to overly favor either party’s side. Twelve consecutive years of GOP patronage appointments means a lot of judges, & a lot of majorities on three-judge panels (not just the Supreme Court).

That’s favoring GOP platform stances on environmental policy, law enforcement, torts, privacy, & on down the line–in a big way. Even a Democrat may agree with some of the Pubbie judges’ conclusions, but even a moderate would welcome far less than all of them; I don’t think the GOP platform, being partly a list of sops to various moneyed interest groups & other cranks, is a great basis for interpretation of all law. Better to throw a mix of left, right, & middle together & let them argue issues out.

Then you add in the GOP partisans that will make up a huge proportion of his executive. There’s a lot to be said for getting a different batch in with different prejudices, who will make mistakes, yes, but different ones.

Bush seemed like he would be a perhaps welcome correction centerward after Clinton. Too bad he was a bit too rash in foreign policy.

After Bush’s dogmatic approach to appointments, McCain would be a slight shift centerward. But Obama would actually appoint a mix of centrists & leftists, & this would be better at getting the government to do its duty.

You’re hitting that all-important “reaching across the aisle” theme. I think that’s a VERY important theme. I’m a strong Democrat, but when my party gets in and gets all three houses, yes, there are some things we have to fix and take care of, but I want balance. I don’t want to trample all over the minority party’s rights. I think that last point is very important.