Indy car fans - Pls Help

Factual Questions
1

Living in Australia I see very limited coverage of Indy Car racing. Perhaps somebody could enlighten me on a few details that my local broadcaster has failed to mention over the past few years.

  1. Why 2 leagues (irl and cart) when and why?
  2. Do some drivers race both
  3. Were there other leagues too? Champ car racing or something?
  4. Is Gill De’Ferran still racing? Where? Who with?
  5. Do both leagues race the Indy 500?

Any other info I obviously don’t know?

p.s. Why aren’t Americans interested in cricket? Are any of you interested in cricket? Do you know what cricket is? Do you have local cricket teams? Do i ask too many questions?

2

I’m not the world’s greatest expert on this, but having grown up right outside of Indy, I’ll do my best…

The IRL was formed approx. 6 years ago, when the folks who are in charge of the 500 and own the Indianapolis Motor Speedway had a bit of a falling out with CART officials. It wasn’t a pretty feud, and a few racing legends like A.J. Foyt sided with the 500 people (the Hulmans) while many others stayed with CART. Much bitterness ensued. The first year of IRL (1996, IIRC), drivers had to choose between running the 500 or a competing race in Michigan that was run on the same day.

I am unaware of any drivers who race both IRL and CART.

These two are the only Indy car leagues.

I saw De Ferran race in the 500 this year, so he’s running IRL. Indy 500 is definitely IRL only.

Extra info: racing world rumor is that CART is in serious trouble and may go under. I picked up this info in the pits at this year’s 500. However, 500 attendance was NOTICEABLY down. It only took an hour to get out of that place after the race, as opposed to the 4-5 hours I’m used to.

More extra info: the two leagues have different car specifications, which apparently affect the safety of the cars and the maximum speeds that can be achieved.

I’m clueless about cricket, except for what I’ve read in Douglas Adams’ novels.

3

Here’s a page that gives a history of the CART/IRL split…
http://www.netaxs.com/~gg1/race/cartirl.htm

Books can (and eventually probably will) be written about the split. But basically it can be attributed to a power struggle between the very rich man who runs the Indianapolis Motor Speedway, Tony George, and the rich men who ran racing teams that raced at Indy, who formed CART in 1979. Basically, the split is the result of a pissing match that continues to this day.

To answer 2-5…

2: No. With the exception of the Indy 500, there is no crossover between CART & IRL drivers. Mostly this is because CART & IRL have established differing engine formulas. At first glance a CART car and an IRL car are the same, but upon closer inspection there a many differences.

  1. Just as the causes of World War II stretch back to World War I, the causes of the split are somewhat based on an earlier split which lead to the creation of CART out of the United States Auto Club (USAC) in the late 70s. Team owners wanted a bigger slice of the money pie from staging events and formed their own racing organization. USAC continued to sponsor non-Indy open wheeled races for a few more years before they gave up. From about 1982 on, CART was the only major league open wheel race in the US, while USAC continued to sanction and run the Indy 500. The Indy 500 was never a “CART” race as such, but CART filled the field for years.

  2. Yes, Gil is racing for Marlboro Team Penske in the IRL. Last year, Gil won the CART championship with Penske. During the off-season, Penske decided to switch to the IRL. The fact that Penske was one of the team owners involved in the creation of CART in 1979 is one of the big reasons why the IRL seems to have the upper hand in the split at the moment.

  3. CART itself does not get involved in the Indy 500. However, teams that race in CART have raced at Indy for the past few years, using IRL cars. In 1999, CART driver Robby Gordon got a ride with an IRL team and nearly won Indy, running out of fuel on the last lap. In 2000, Chip Ganassi brought his race team to Indy and Juan Montoya took the race in a walkover. 2 more teams followed Ganassi in 2001. Actually, CART took positions 1-5 in that race, with Helio Castroneves taking the win. NASCAR driver Tony Stewart, in a one-off with Chip Ganassi took 6th place. The “best” IRL driver was 7th, a lap down.

In 2002, two different CART teams are also running full-time operations in the IRL, Chip Ganassi and Morris Nunn. Roger Penske is running full time in the IRL, and Team Green was the only CART team to do a one-off at Indy. Ganassi had his CART driver Bruno Junquiera put a car on the pole. Nunn’s CART driver Tony Kanaan seemed to have the fastest car at Indy.

With the exception of Penske’s team, CART still has the better drivers and the more professional race teams. But Indy is such a 500 ton gorilla that the IRL has been able to survive and threaten the very existence of CART in the coming years.

The CART/IRL split is a holy war amongst the small number of people who really care.

4

Thankyou so much, that’s been bugging me for ages…much appreciated :slight_smile:

5

It may also be interesting to note that Australia only ever saw CART races until this year. Now we only see IRL. (At least on free2air TV)…mmm why can’t we all just get along?

ps - I personally preferred CART, which is more popular?

6

It may also be interesting to note that Australia only ever saw CART races until this year. Now we only see IRL. (At least on free2air TV)…mmm why can’t we all just get along?

ps - I personally preferred CART!!!

pps - Which league (if any) is favoured as far as tv coverage goes? Is this the most popular one?

7

Well, here goes nothing.

When I was a wee lad, Indy car racing was run by USAC, the US Automobile Club. Then most of the car owners became upset with the daft way USAC was running the show (ruining the show, they said.) They started the Championship Auto Racing Teams, CART. Roger Penske was a big shaker in the revolt, and he owned a track or two. After a period of time passed, Tony George, the owner of the Indianapolis Motor Speedway, engineered the birth of the Indy Racing League, IRL. The theory there, aside from more money for Tony, was less expensive, safer, race cars. The IRL teams had a choice between two engines, based on the Oldsmobile Aurora engine and the Infiniti engine. There were two chassis, the Dallara and the G-Force. The CARTers and the IRLies still growl at each other, but eventually some of the CART guys agreed to race at Indy. Perhaps one body will win out. We’ll see. The hubbub over this year’s Indy finish doesn’t bode well for harmony.

  1. Before USAC, there was the American Automobile Association, AAA. AAA now has nothing to do with racing, nor with sweet Opal.
    “Champ car” and “Championship circuit” are terms left over from the USAC days.

4.Gil DeFerran, if I remember, is still racing on the IRL circuit.

  1. Indianapolis is primarily an IRL show, but CART teams are now allowed to join in. Some do.

I’m painting from memory, and others may smack me for an error or two.

p.s. I’ve heard there are growing cricket leagues in the US, but most of us have absolutely no understanding of the game. No, Rybotixx, you don’t ask too many questions. That’s what we do here, picking each others brains. However, you might have been better off putting the cricket question in a separate thread.

8

I see that some others posted while I was typing slowly.

9

I live in America and I don’t see much of CART either. :frowning: The IRL has the better TV package, with many races appearing on ABC, which is an over-the-air network station, with the remainder appearing on ESPN, which is available to anyone with basic cable. CART on the other hand has the bulk of their races on the boutique cable station Speed Channel, which has about half the cable pentration as ESPN. I don’t get Speed Channel because of some messed up situation between my apartment complex and the local cable company. Some of the CART races are on network TV with CBS, but only about 7 or 8 of the 19 or 20 races.

It’s not a surprise to me that the IRL has a better US TV package, but it really does surprise me that it has fallen behind the IRL outside the US. Just another case of CART mismanging itself into a self-created hole, I think.

Leaving out Indy, CART gets much better racetrack attendance on average. In fact, up until this evening’s IRL race in Texas, IRL was average about 25,000 people at its races (which looks just terrible at tracks designed for NASCAR crowds of 100,000+). CART on the other hand drew crowds of 100,000+ at Montterry, Mexico and Long Beach, California. IRL never gets 100,000 at any race other than Indy.

10

I’m running the risk of getting in over my head and saying something that just ain’t true, so I’ll put faith in others to correct me if I’m wrong… :slight_smile:

Since I haven’t seen it specifically addressed, a “champ car” is a CART car. I believe this kind-of-corny name came about after the split - there were a few issues (legal and otherwise) with CART referring to its vehicles as “Indy cars” after that.

Roger Penske brought his team and drivers (de Ferran and Castroneves) over to the IRL just this year (2002). I have seen the big tobacco settlement (1998) cited as the major reason for this switch (although the leaving-the-sinking-ship idea does have merit).

Team Penske’s primary sponsor is Marlboro. Under the terms of the tobacco settlement, Marlboro can only be advertised in one series of racing in the US (this is simplifying greatly, but that’s the upshot).

The Indianapolis 500 is a IRL-sanctioned race. Marlboro “used up” its one sponsorship on Penske’s CART operation, and it was ruled (in court, I believe) that his IRL operation was separate for these purposes - even though it was the same people, and was a one-off thing. So, at the 2001 Indy 500, de Ferran and Castroneves had to run Marlboro-less cars. Here’s an article describing it in more detail.

Philip Morris, the parent company of the Marlboro brand, was less than pleased. The Indy 500 is easily the most-watched open-wheel race in the US - sponsors don’t really give a damn who sanctions the race, they just want their logos on the cars. Philip Morris essentially concluded that the Indy 500 (plus the rest of the IRL season) was worth more to them than the entire CART season, and put strong pressure on Penske to move his operation to the IRL. Which he did, starting in 2002.

11

CARTs engine manufacturers are jumping ship too. CART engines will be normally aspirated next year, the same as IRLs. I believe this is why Toyota jumped. Toyota would prefer to R&D turbocharged cars, but if neither series will run them, they would rather have the prestige that comes with winning Indy.

I always thought the turbochargers screaming around the track was a signiature of Indy, and miss the sound with the NA engines…but having said that, the speed of the NA cars has finally caught up with the turbocharged ones, which makes it easier to take.

IRL is changing it’s engine formula next year, to slow the cars down again, but I’m sure the manufacturers and teams will find ways to gain that speed back.

I think CART might make it one or two more years, but with no manufacturer support, and advertisers bolting for the Indy 500 and IRL, it looks like it is bound to fail soon.

12

I doubt you’ll see CART even next year. They’re down to 1 chassis manufacturer, Lola, which is in deep trouble. They’ve already “allowed” teams to use this year’s cars next year, with the new same-as-IRL-spec engines. That might matter if there were any existing engine makers committted to supplying CART next year - but there’s only 1, and it’s a startup with all that that implies. They have no tire supplier available for next year at all. Those things are the direct result of IRL forbidding any of its suppliers to supply CART as well, which is part of Tony George’s plan to become the supreme ruler of what is left of North American open-wheel racing.

With the collapse of PacWest, CART is below the 20-car minimum required under most of their track and TV contracts. The sponsors, as well as the preeminent teams (which includes Patrick already, btw, and probably Green pretty soon) are already gone to the IRL. In short, if CART finds a way to run in 2003, it will be a sad farce. The only reason to hope at all is that new CEO Chris Pook knows the business. If Joe “Skill Sets” Heitzler were still tossing his MBA-speak around, they’d be dead already.

So congratulations, Tony, you played the Indianapolis 500 card and won the game, but at the price of almost everyone else in the racing world hating your guts, if they still care at all. The only real question left is if IRL will expand to road courses and go outside North America, like CART does/did, or will stick with ovals at home (in front of entire vacant grandstands).

13

Incidently, the real winner in the CART-IRL feud is NASCAR. For example, the Coca-Cola 600, contested the same day as the Indy 500, gets almost as much media attention these days as the Indy 500, and The CC600 is merely one of the more important of NASCAR’s many races. The popularity of open-cockpit auto racing has really taken a hit in the US in recent years, sad but true.

14

Believe it or not, the United States Auto Club is still alive and well. USAC still sanctions open wheel races in ten different divisions: four sprint car divisions (the national division, two “western states” divisions, and an Arizona-New Mexico division), five midget divisions (the national division, a midwest regional division, and three “western states” divisions), and the Weld Racing Silver Crown Championship series (more on this in a second). USAC also operates the Quarter Midgets of America and the Russell Triple Crown Pro Series. USAC’s website may be found here:
www.usacracing.com

A few recent USAC champions have gone on to become rather famous. Jeff Gordon was the USAC national midget champion in 1990 and the Silver Crown champion in 1991. Tony Stewart won the national midget title in 1994 and 1995, as well as the sprint and Silver Crown titles in 1995 as well. AJ Foyt was the USAC “eastern” sprint car champion in 1960. Parnelli Jones, who went on to win the Indy 500 as well, was the USAC national sprint car champ in 1961 and '62.

While CART personnel ridiculously call their cars “champ cars” (is my contempt for CART apparent?), AskNott is correct that the term “champ cars” derives from when USAC sponsored Indianapolis-style racing. Take a look at this.

This is what a modern Silver Crown car looks like:
http://www.seymourracing.com/images/car_home0002.jpg

This is a picture of a similar car from 1980:
http://www.seymourracing.com/images/leavitt.JPG

This page contains pictures of the winning cars from the 1950s Indy 500s:
http://www.geocities.com/johnsonindy500/theindy500/indycarpics1950.html

As one can see, Silver Crown cars appear similar to old Indy cars. In fact, one might argue that they are what Indy cars might look like today had the “rear engine revolution” taken place in the early to mid 1960s.

Incidentally, Tony George (the president of the IRL) is the grandson of the legendary Tony Hulman, former owner of the Indianapolis Motor Speedway. Tony George’s father, Elmer, was the 1957 USAC midwest sprint car champion.

[QUOTE]
3. Just as the causes of World War II stretch back to World War I, the causes of the split are somewhat based on an earlier split which lead to the creation of CART out of the United States Auto Club (USAC) in the late 70s. Team owners wanted a bigger slice of the money pie from staging events and formed their own racing organization. USAC continued to sponsor non-Indy open wheeled races for a few more years before they gave up.

[QUOTE]
3. Just as the causes of World War II stretch back to World War I, the causes of the split are somewhat based on an earlier split which lead to the creation of CART out of the United States Auto Club (USAC) in the late 70s. Team owners wanted a bigger slice of the money pie from staging events and formed their own racing organization. USAC continued to sponsor non-Indy open wheeled races for a few more years before they gave up.

[QUOTE]
3. Just as the causes of World War II stretch back to World War I, the causes of the split are somewhat based on an earlier split which lead to the creation of CART out of the United States Auto Club (USAC) in the late 70s. Team owners wanted a bigger slice of the money pie from staging events and formed their own racing organization. USAC continued to sponsor non-Indy open wheeled races for a few more years before they gave up.

15

Another huge mistake (in hindsight, admittedly), was letting two young American open wheel stars slip to Nascar: Gordan and Tony Stewart. If CART or IRL had kept these two in their league, I think we would have this generation’s Andretti/Unser duels.

For all the luster it has lost, the Indy 500 is still an event that everyone should attend once. I can’t think of any other one day event that draws as large an attendence.