This thread got me realizing that I don’t know jack about auto racing, despite growing up in the Motor City.
Can somebody explain what the IRL/CART split was? Or what open wheel is? When did this split take place, and why?
When did NASCAR really start taking off as the #1 brand of auto racing in the US?
How much different is NASCAR from F1 racing? Could a driver cross over from one to the other? And are those the two main differentiations-- NASCAR and Formula 1?
Open wheel refers to cars such as F1, Indy, and Cart that have their wheels completely exposed.
NASCAR and F1 aren’t necessarily the main differentations, although they are each representative of opposing ends of the circuit racing spectrum. One is open wheeled racing around grand prix circuits consisting of both left and right turns, the other is sedan style cars racing around an oval track. Many fans of one type, find the other exceedingly boring.
I can’t answer the rest of your questions I’m afraid.
[QUOTE=Happy Lendervedder]
This thread got me realizing that I don’t know jack about auto racing, despite growing up in the Motor City.
Can somebody explain what the IRL/CART split was? Or what open wheel is? When did this split take place, and why?
When did NASCAR really start taking off as the #1 brand of auto racing in the US?
How much different is NASCAR from F1 racing? Could a driver cross over from one to the other? And are those the two main differentiations-- NASCAR and Formula 1?
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I watch Formula 1 racing and it is very, very different from NASCAR. Formula 1 is the highest level of open-wheel racing (and all of motorsport for that matter) in the world and is an international sport. NASCAR is the highest level of stock car racing and is based in the US.
Drivers do move between F1 and NASCAR, but not very often. Juan Pablo Montoya is a good example, though.
The IRL/CART split happened in the mid-90s. The first IRL race was in 1996. It happened, depending on who you talk to, because CART was becoming dominated by rich teams, because CART was becoming dominated by non-American teams, or because CART was moving away from oval racing and toward road courses. The IRL split and took the Indianapolis 500, basically splitting both the fanbase and the participants.
[QUOTE=1920s Style “Death Ray”]
NASCAR and F1 aren’t necessarily the main differentations, although they are each representative of opposing ends of the circuit racing spectrum. One is open wheeled racing around grand prix circuits consisting of both left and right turns, the other is sedan style cars racing around an oval track. Many fans of one type, find the other exceedingly boring.
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NASCAR races on road courses and the IRL races on ovals.
Based on what criteria?
[QUOTE=Happy Lendervedder]
Or what open wheel is?
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Well, this one is easy. Open wheel racing is racing where the cars are required to have their wheels in the open, notably Formula One. This includes CART (Champ Car) as well as IRL (Indy Racing League).
NASCAR, on the other hand, has all the cars’ wheels covered.
Formula One fans will love the challenge of twisty courses that require great changes of speed over the course of a lap, and will look down on NASCAR as a bunch of rednecks watching another bunch of rednecks turning left (and I believe that latter description was used by a NASCAR driver who got fined for the comment). NASCAR fans love the high speeds and bigger opportunities to pass, while disdaining things like a top driver getting stuck behind a nobody for most of the race just because the course is too narrow and twisty to pass (I’m thinking specifically of David Coulthard at Monte Carlo in the '00 - '01 season).
[QUOTE=Garfield226]
Based on what criteria?
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Based on:
It’s over $2 Billion annual budget (three quarters of the way down the page)
It’s top earner, recently retired Michael Schumacher, earned $80 Million in 2004, typical for his later years. Second only to Tiger Woods for all athletes.
It’s global viewership, extending to approx. 200 countries.
The current racing season spans five continents.
The level of technology.
So are IRL and CART aka Formula 1?
I thought I was getting it for a minute here, but now I’m not so sure…a Grand Prix is Formula 1, right? And it has twists and turns, it’s not just an oval, right? Of course, I’m basing this knowledge entirely on that kick-ass 80’s video game of the same name where you could pick the shape of your course.
So what’s a “road course” compared to an oval? Is a Grand Prix raced on a road course-- a closed off road turned into a track?
Next question: I thought NASCAR was done an oval, with no twists and turns (“bunch of rednecks turning left”), but then Garfield226 says,
So it would appear IRL are also just a “bunch of rednecks turning left.” Is this correct?
[QUOTE=Happy Lendervedder]
So are IRL and CART aka Formula 1?
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No.
While those are all forms of open-wheel racing, They are all separate series or leagues, if you will. IRL and CART are centered in North America and F1 is global but centered in Europe.
[QUOTE=Happy Lendervedder]
I thought I was getting it for a minute here, but now I’m not so sure…a Grand Prix is Formula 1, right? And it has twists and turns, it’s not just an oval, right?
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Right and right.
[QUOTE=Happy Lendervedder]
So what’s a “road course” compared to an oval? Is a Grand Prix raced on a road course-- a closed off road turned into a track?
[/QUOTE]
A road course is a circuit that is not an oval or “oval-like” in shape. It will have right and left turns.All of the circuits in F1 are road courses and run the range from dedicated tracks to city streets to incorporating an oval into a road course like in Indy. F1 does actually race at Indy, an example of different series sharing the same circuit.
[QUOTE=Happy Lendervedder]
Next question: I thought NASCAR was done an oval, with no twists and turns (“bunch of rednecks turning left”), but then Garfield226 says,
So it would appear IRL are also just a “bunch of rednecks turning left.” Is this correct?
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I don’t know very much about NASCAR, but I do believe a large majority of its races are on ovals with a few road courses thrown in there for good measure.
IRL, while being open-wheel as opposed to stock car (NASCAR) also runs primarily on ovals, if not exclusively. I don’t know very much about IRL, someone else can correct me on that if I am wrong.
No. You have become confused I suspect by waterj2’s first sentence and what he is referring to when he says “includes”.
For present purposes we can say there are three types of tracks:
Ovals - purpose built stadiums ovals. The cars only turn one way (left).
Road circuits - purpose built tracks with straights and curves in both directions.
Street circuits - as for car racing circuits, but comprising actual roads and streets closed off for the race.
There are broadly two types of car under discussion here:
Open wheel cars: purpose built racing cars with a pod for the driver, an engine behind, and wheels, with no overall body and no mudguards (open wheeler)
Sedans: based loosely on street cars. Enclosed body. Engine in front.
Formula One is an international open wheeler competition run on a mix of road and street circuits.
Cart is an American open wheeler competition run (at least this year) on circuits, not ovals.
IRL is an American open wheeler competition run on a mix of ovals and circuits.
NASCAR is an American sedan competition run mostly on ovals but with some road circuits.
Is that sorted now?
[QUOTE=waterj2]
NASCAR fans love the high speeds and bigger opportunities to pass, while disdaining things like a top driver getting stuck behind a nobody for most of the race just because the course is too narrow and twisty to pass (I’m thinking specifically of David Coulthard at Monte Carlo in the '00 - '01 season).
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Monte Carlo is of course known as being the circuit that is hard to pass on. It’s not representative.
Couple of questions:
Don’t NASCAR fans thing it is silly to have cars that look like passenger sedans (decals for headlights, etc.) but are not based at all on any sort of “stock” technology?
Why open wheels? It seems dangerous and maybe not the best aerodynamically.
[QUOTE=Princhester]
Monte Carlo is of course known as being the circuit that is hard to pass on. It’s not representative.
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I was going to raise the same point.
I love Monte Carlo, though. That race is just absolutely ridiculous… And here.
[QUOTE=DanBlather]
Couple of questions:
Don’t NASCAR fans thing it is silly to have cars that look like passenger sedans (decals for headlights, etc.) but are not based at all on any sort of “stock” technology?
Why open wheels? It seems dangerous and maybe not the best aerodynamically.
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Hey, come on now, its enertaymunt dammit!
[QUOTE=Shamozzle]
Hey, come on now, its enertaymunt dammit!
Open Wheel Racing
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Thanks for the link. I never thought about the visibility of the wheels making placement easier. The part about the wheels touching freaks me out.
[QUOTE=DanBlather]
Thanks for the link. I never thought about the visibility of the wheels making placement easier. The part about the wheels touching freaks me out.
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You’re welcome. Did you happen to check out those YouTube clips I linked above? You will see just how important wheel placement can be.
Don’t forget World Rally Championship. These guys (professionals) race on ice, mud, sand and tarmac, and slide around corners (though the emphasis is speed, not style as in the new hot shit Drifting). WRC is mostly big in Europe, AFAIK, but they show it on American TV sometimes.
[QUOTE=DanBlather]
Couple of questions:
Don’t NASCAR fans thing it is silly to have cars that look like passenger sedans (decals for headlights, etc.) but are not based at all on any sort of “stock” technology?
Why open wheels? It seems dangerous and maybe not the best aerodynamically.
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That is the main complaint about NASCAR, nowadays. There is nothing “stock” about those cars. All the companies do is build a fiber body that more or less ressembles one of their cars (by virtue of the shape of the headlight decals, mostly) and that is fitted on a spec chassis with a spec engine.
As for where is the fun in racing sedans… well. If it has an engine and it moves, it can be raced and bet on. I am a big F1 fan and snob, I don’t follow any other series. But if you leave me home alone, I will watch any race of any ridiculous vehicle that SPEED TV cares to show at the time. It is fun
I’ve seen the Monaco GP before (televised) but never seen the racedriver’s view. I have heard how insane it is described in words, but seeing it from the outside you just don’t get how close the walls are, or how fast they are really going.
Seeing that clip, though. Jeebus. That is just unreal.
[QUOTE=Garfield226]
NASCAR races on road courses
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But most are ovals aren’t they?
And IRL is not F1.
What I meant is that NASCAR and F1 represent opposing ends of the circuit racing spectrum. However the differences are not mutually exclusive.
NASCAR is sedans around, generally, oval circuits. Some sedan competitions however, such as the Australian V8 Supercars are exclusively road courses.
F1 is open wheelers around road circuits. Some open wheel cars however, such as IRL, race on ovals.
This doesn’t stop F1 from being representative of both open wheelers, and road circuit racing. It also doesn’t stop NASCAR from being representative of stock-cars and oval circuit racing.
Personally I’d rather watch the V8 Supercars race around road circuits than F1 or anything on an oval (except maybe speedway.) I’d much rather watch MotoGP bikes than anything with four wheels, but that is another subject entirely.
Oval, of course, is a fairly loose term itself. Indy is an oval. Daytona is an oval. Pocono is an oval. Martinsville is an oval. Charlotte is an oval. Richmond is an oval. But Indy is a rectangular oval, Daytona is a tri-oval, Pocono is a triangle, Martinsville is a half-mile oval (compared to Indy and Daytona, which are 2.5 miles), Charlotte is a quad-oval, and Richmond is a D-oval. Darlington has an odd design that looks kinda like an egg, but that’s another oval. In fact, I think they’re racing at Darlington today in a couple hours if the weather holds out. While there may not be the difficulty of a road course at any of these (such as right turns, no banking in turns, and fewer/more difficult places to pass) there is still more to racing on ovals than simply “hold down gas pedal, turn left.”
Of course, many of those I just listed have a road course in the infield that is either completely separate from the main oval or use/can use parts of it for the course. F1 races at Indy on the road course, but I’m amazed that they still do it after what happened in 2005.
