Indy Driver Dan Wheldon dead

There has been a lot of concern about that, so IndyCar has come up with a new design for next year. Pay particular attention to the rear wheels. It’s still open wheel, but they’re nearly completely covered.

http://auto-racing.speedtv.com/article/video-chevy-2012-car-testing-teaser

It’s my opinion that a major cause of today’s crash wasn’t so much the speed, but the number of cars entered – 34. Of course, the same thing might’ve happened had there been 20 cars entered, or 15 on the track. But certainly IndyCar had never had 34 cars on a 1.5 mile oval before.

Also keep in mind the speeds are lower than in CART’s heyday (900 hp engines, and nearly 240 mph). Michael Andretti nearly blacked out driving around the Texas track some years ago due to excessive speeds and G forces. Today’s IndyCars are more along the lines of 700 hp and are somewhat slower (but still extremely dangerous, obviously).

The fact of the matter is auto racing will never be completely safe. It’s like flying–it’s much safer than it used to be, but pilots still die in crashes (see air show disasters, this year).

The excitement of watching racing is seeing the danger in it; watching drivers go fast, risking their lives. That doesn’t mean (most) people want to see crashes, and certainly not see people die. But oval, road, or street course, drag strip or rally course, auto racing or hydroplanes, the thrill is watching close, fast competition.

Good, tight racing is exciting to watch. Seeing someone die, while it goes with the territory, is not high on the race fans list of priorities. To think otherwise is to profess ignorance about racing.

Someone else can check the math, but I found a reference to this on another forum (that deals with racing).

http://www.racing-reference.info/showblog?id=846

All I know is that an open wheel car, such as IndyCar, hasn’t gone over the fence…yet.

Fans have been killed by the debris from wrecks. (Mostly tires, to the best of my knowledge.)

Nobody was getting giddy because there was an accident, your inference that they were somehow happy that a wreck happened is simply wrong. It’s a major event in a race, you’ll hear the same pitch when a leader gets overtaken or some other major event occurs near the end of the race. But, as others have pointed out, you clearly don’t watch Indy car racing. Pro tip: it’s not NASCAR, and Formula 1 is not for rednecks.

A marshal was killed by debris in the 1996 Molson Indy. The video is out there on youtube but Im not real big on linking to deaths. Road coarse, obviously, and Im not sure how much can really be done about debris other than make the fences higher. Gah, I remember that very clearly, cant believe it was so long ago (in my search, I came across a video of Greg Moores death, it was almost as long ago).

While it’s not impossible for wheels to fly off a car these days and into the stands, it’s much more remote due to wheel tethers.

http://auto-racing.speedtv.com/article/video-indycar-101-wheel-tethers/

Greg Moore died Halloween, 1999 at Fontana. I taped that race. What another great young driver lost much too early.

Well, he never claimed he watches Indy racing.

And the fact that he doesn’t is not relevant; his comment was directed at the clip of the accident he viewed (as he clearly stated).
mmm

The most infamous case of fans being killed by a car going into the crowd was the 1955 Le Mans disaster. Even with the vastly higher speeds attained by cars over the last 56 years nothing like that has happened since due to safety improvements that resulted from that accident, unless you count rally racing where the fans are utter lunatics.

Fans have been hurt by fuel and killed by flying tires (as you said), but cars flying over the catch fencing is extraordinarily unlikely. I’d venture to say that on a NASCAR or IndyCar track it won’t ever happen. The same cannot be said about small-town dirt tracks, cars have gone over the fence countless times, almost always in the turns. Fortunately the track owners put the stands on the straights or back away from the corners so it would require an exceptional accident indeed to make a car do a right angle turn on the straight and hit with enough force to clear the catch-fencing. It’s simple physics that make it that unlikely.

The closest I can remember was Bobby Allison’s 1987 Talladega accident, and that was at ridiculously high speeds, coming out of a turn, and with a much heavier car. Ironically, that accident actually made NASCAR racing less safe as it was the catalyst for NASCAR’s use of restrictor plates, which made the racing at Daytona and Talladega 43-cars-wheel-to-wheel for 500 miles. It’s ridiculously exciting, but there’s a reason that they have a name for accidents at those tracks: “The Big One”.

The bottom line is this: you will never be able to engineer the risk out of motor racing. It’s simply not possible. The drivers know the risks and do it anyway for their own reasons, be it money, glory or thrill-seeking. The fans watch it for the thrills, and the accidents, say what you will about them, are thrilling. All the same, it’s not a bloodsport. Nobody wants the drivers to die, they want to see thrills and spills. It’s the same instinct that makes blooper reels so amusing to some.

It’s a terrible thing when drivers die, but they put the racing suit on, don the helmet, start the car, and go balls-out for hours at a time. Dan Wheldon died doing what he loved, and there will never be a better epitaph than that.

Carl Edwards, same track, 2009.

I’m more pissed than sad.

This was the first time that the IndyCars have been back at Las Vegas since they raised the banking to improve the show for NASCAR. A major “Big One” was practically inevitable given:

  1. The well-known nature of the current IndyCar formula which induces NASCAR-style “side by side” racing.
  2. A number of drivers in the race were part-timers, and a number of rookies whose racing record this year hasn’t been stellar, including, sadly, the kid who set off the accident.
  3. Putting a fast driver at the back of the pack for the sake of the show, a $5 million dollar payout if Wheldon had won.
  4. 34 cars on the track…IndyCar looked past their rule book to even allow that many cars in the race in the first place, again for the sake of the show.
  5. The well-known nature of the current IndyCars to get airborne in speedway wrecks.

I doubt anyone is going to get sued over this. Wheldon knew what he was getting into. His luck ran out. Could have been worse…Will Power’s car got just as airborne as Wheldon’s, but he hit the fence slightly differently…all down to random chance. Randy Bernard wanted a spectacle…he got his fucking spectacle.

Baloney. The only reason to watch any non-F1 racing event is to hope someone crashes. It’s the same reason people watch bull-fights or the running of the bulls. It’s barely above the level of the Romans and the Colosseum.

At least with F1 racing there is more skill involved. Driving around to the left as fast as you can for 300 miles would be about as interesting as watching paint dry if people weren’t interested in watching people crash their cars.

I’m sure no one is hoping people die, but stop pretending people don’t watch because they want to see big crashes.

DragonAsh, approximately half of IndyCar’s schedule is made up of non-ovals (that is, permanent road tracks and temporary street courses) where the cars turn right as well as left. Long Beach is a notable example, where they race on the city streets.

As I and others have said, there are people who do want to watch crashes, but IMO, they are in a tiny minority. Knowledgeable race fans don’t want to see crashes, but instead want to watch racing. Sometimes that racing is close, as in side-by-side, but it’s always competitive. Watch some races sometime where the drivers are passing each other in the corners without wrecking.

Then compare that sort of competition to a sport that comes closer to your description of the Romans watching a bloodbath in the Colosseum: MMA fighting.

Oh, and F1? It’s actually more about technology than driver skill. Manufacturers use F1 as a testbed for technology…

DragonAsh, stop pretending you know the motivation behind every single race fan. Some of us are in it for the racing.

And btw, I witnessed an Indycar going over the fence at Miami approximately 1993. That was a temporary street course; the race moved out to the Homestead permanent track a year or two later. I happened to be on the other side of the track and watched it all happen. I believe a couple fans were injured – somebody got hit by one of those fly-away tires (this was before they started tethering them to the car).

It’s not something I care to see while watching racing. I prefer a clean race with no wrecks at all because then you get to see the winner win because of the team’s efforts, not just because he was the tenth little indian standing.

To me, it seems as though everyone gets a more sporting chance to win that way, rather than find yourself up front because of someone else’s rookie mistake. Danica’s win at Motegi is a great example of that: she won that race on pit strategy, not because she’s such an awesome driver that she passed her way up to the front. No. There was a wreck and/or a car breakdown, which put the leaders in the back just in time for Danica to pull out for the last few laps and take the checkered flag. That is not to say that Danica didn’t win due to skill, but that win was about pit strategy, not Danica’s driving skills, which are mediocre by Indy standards (IMO).

Very, very sad. He seemed a decent lad. On the radio this morning we had Jenson Button, Mark Webber and Anthony Davidson recalling their early days with him on the UK karting circuit and they spoke very highly of him.

I don’t know if Indy racing is inherently more dangerous than any other but from what I see, at those speeds, with that many cars, with no run-off? If it goes bad it’ll go very,very bad.

What shocked me were the fires I’ve got so used to massive collisions without flames that it was a bit of a wakeup for me.

I confess, as a long time F1 fan I like (yes “like”) a good crash as much as the next man but it is such a fine line between being thrilled by it and sickened by it.

What can I do about that? If there were no crashes then motor-racing loses some of its glamour. I’d love to have the risk inherent in ragged-edge racing tempered with safety-systems that mean real injury is minimised. That is a difficult equation to balance and unfortunately it is only incidents like this that drive safety forward.

Not the place for a pissing contest but this doesn’t reflect the full picture, it is both. The best open wheel drivers are in F1 as is the best technology. There isn’t any doubt about that.

Interestingly, Wheldon was one of the test drivers for the new chassis Indycar that will be (pun intended) rolled out in the 2012 season. The improvements to the new design are, in part, designed to help avoid accidents like this where the cars go airborne.

This is why Indycars generally don’t run high-banked tracks like Daytona or Talladega. They are so much lighter than stock cars and run so much faster. They only need a tiny little slip of air underneath to turn them in to rockets.

The fires were shocking to me as well. The reason you aren’t used to seeing firey crashes in Indycars is because the ethanol burns clear. There are often fires but you can’t see the flames. Seems like it was only last season (might have been two seasons ago by now) Brazilian Tony Kanaan was in a minor accident where there was fire. The only reason the safety crews realized the car was on fire was because they saw TK beating flames off his face. They put him out and the new nickname “The Torch” was born. When you see big orange flamey flames in an Indycar wreck, it’s because the oil has caught fire. The fuel burns off clear.

Talk about rednecks, the level of ignorance in this thread disgusts me.

This is the highest pinnacle of motorsport, and the drivers must be more talented and take higher risks. Formula 1 may once have had the best drivers, but that was in an era when they drove in multiple series in many types of cars. None of the drivers who have left F1 in the last thirty years have shown exceptional talent in subsequent series. Not even the vaunted Michael Schumacher has consistently beaten his competitors in the yearly multi-disipline Race Of Champions.

Indycar is likely to be the most dangerous major motorsports series, following NHRA drag racing. As Ernest Hemingway said “There are only three sports: bullfighting, motor racing, and mountaineering; all the rest are merely games.” I could easily come in here and spout untruths and ignorant jibes at NFL Football, and dozens would pipe in and tell me to go away. I ask those who don’t follow motor racing to do the same.

I don’t even know that most NASCAR fans belong in the discussion. That sport has been dumbed down so much by the current regime that it sometimes has little resemblance to the sport I watch on ABC-TV in the 1970s. There was an editorial on one of the NASCAR blogs this morning regarding the overwhelming cheers when one of the leading championship contenders hit the wall hard on Saturday night. The article looked at the event in hindsight and reflected on Dan Wheldon’s death. The author chided fans for cheering until they knew the driver was safe. The majority of the comments proudly proclaimed that they had been cheering and castigated the author for being politically correct.

As a spectator and participant, I’ve seen four fatal accidents occur directly in front of me. I’ve lived through 50 or more deaths in the sport since I became a fan as a young boy. Every “sport” is dangerous and that is a large portion of the thrill of participation. In most cases it only results in broken bones. In others, life-altering concussions or permanent disability. No sports fan should take the high and mighty approach that auto racing is stupid. I happen to think it makes more sense than chasing a ball across a field of grass.

As to the affect of this death on Indycar racing, I think it will be long-reaching. The sanctioning body rented this track and paid to put on this race. Normally, races are staged by track owners in concert with race promoters and they share the costs. Indycar needed a “destination” for their season finale in order to draw in eyeballs. Many fans attended the event free as part of a promotion that allowed ticket owners from other events to see the race.

This death obviously puts a damper on their depiction of a race as part of a party weekend. The cancellation of the race prevented the presentation of an extremely close points race coming down to the final lap as it had in several years previous, and in contrast to NASCAR championships. The NASCAR race was Saturday night, which meant that they Indycar could attract their viewers on Sunday afternoon. Given that there were less than fifteen minutes of racing, it’s doubtful that many viewers hung around the TV for the next two hours to await the fate of someone they’d never heard of. This will no doubt inspire the ire of people who want to shut down the sport for any number of reasons, or cause Indycar racing to be child-proofed as NASCAR has.

The safety precautions worked as they were supposed to. There was a series-dedicated medical team on-site within seconds. The walls absorbed the impact as they should. Fifteen drivers were involved in the crash and the only other major injuries were burns to the hands of one driver and unresolved dizziness in another.
Wheldon died because his car rode over the wheels of another and the top of the car was dragged across the catch fence. Ironically, Wheldon’s year was largely spent developing a new car for next year that includes barriers to prevent one car from over-flying another, as well as a taller cockpit that protects the driver if the car goes upside down.

Saddest part of all: Wheldon was slated to replace Danica on the AGR team. Where he would have given the Target and Penske teams a serious run for their money.

You are being silly. It is not the highest pinnacle. The best open wheel drivers gravitate to F1. You have champions in the US coming across to F1 and yet they rarely make an impact.
Michael Andretti and Jaun Pablo Montoya were average but Jacques Villeneuve was an exception and did well for a while. The people who can’t make it in F1 (such as, sorry to say, Wheldon and Franchitti) do go onto other series and do very well. The reason someone like Schumacher didn’t make the move is because he knew he was already at the top, anything else would be a step down for him the top drivers in F1 rarely move across though when Nigel Mansell did so in 1993 he won.
The best “drivers” (whatever that means) are probably in the WRC. That is the format that the ROC favours and sure enough when you look at the winners we see rally drivers all over the place, then a load of F1 drivers. I’m not sure what point you are trying to make here.

Is Indy racing dangerous? yes. Are the drivers brave? yes. That doesn’t necessarily translate into the drivers taking part being the best.

Too late to edit but I need to apologise for the hijack above. This thread is not the time or place for it when a man has died.

Sorry.

I agree that this is not the time. I disagree with your arguments but either is far above normal human accomplishment, and it’s as pointless as arguing whether American or National League baseball rules are better. I was angry with DragonAshe’s comment’s and I apologize.

Perhaps we can approach the subject later on. There is a distinct lack of motor racing discussion here.