Why is it that the Americans are so concerned about the killing of innocents in the WTC but most don’t seem to care about the innocent people in Afghanistan who have been killed. Red Cross facilities have been accidentally bombed twice, as well as some neighborhoods. I even saw a political cartoon somewhat justifying it. It went something like this:
Afghan: This is terrible! Nine innocent Afghans killed!
Other Afghan (under breath): Amateurs
Could someone please explain this phenomenon?
Sooo… Non-Americans are not concerned about the killing of innocents? You’ve polled “most Americans” and ascertained their general ennui towards “innocent people in Afghanistan”?
First, what xcheopis said. And second, I’m sure most Americans believe their government is genuinely trying to avoid civilian casualties - but some are almost inevitable in any war situation.
No such effort whatsoever was made by those responsible for the WTC attacks.
I’m unclear about why you believe this. It would have been MUCH easier and safer to kill the Taliban by simply carpet-bombing the cities where they hide. One of the many good reasons for not doing so was that the civilian population would also have been killed, putting the US on the same level as the Taliban. From what I see, the military is going to great lengths to avoid civilian casualties in Afghanistan. Unfortunately, there is no way I am aware of to avoid killing ANY non-combatants when making war in an urban environment.
Testy.
First of all, as Testy said, the U.S. is taking measures to avoid civilian deaths in Afghanistan.
Secondly, most people feel worse about the deaths of their countrymen than those of people who live halfway across the world. It is a bit depressing but it is hardly a phenomenon unique to the United States.
Ugh, I know. Like when they report a plane crash, they always say “x Americans were killed” like it matters how many were American.
Because we are Americans, not Afghans. The same reason you would care more if I keyed your car as opposed to the car belonging to some random guy across town.
I realize that most of the ultra-liberal psuedo-intellectual bleeding-heart conspiracy geeks on this board find such things like national pride distasteful, but I still prefer being an American. That means that if Afghans or Americans have to be on the receiving end of large explosive devices, I would prefer they land over there.
msmith: “I realize that most of the ultra-liberal psuedo-intellectual bleeding-heart conspiracy geeks on this board find such things like national pride distasteful, but I still prefer being an American. That means that if Afghans or Americans have to be on the receiving end of large explosive devices, I would prefer they land over there.”
Actually, I am often very proud to be an American, so I’m not especially troubled by “national pride” when and where it is justified.
What I really find distasteful is when ultra-insular psuedo-intelligent navel-gazing TV-informed buttheads pretend that they can write off thinking people with a slew of dismissive adjectives. That means that if American soldiers have to put their lives on the line to defend arrogant fellow citizens, I would prefer that msmith be the first to enlist and put his mortal coil where his spewing mouth is.
Palve, Many Americans have seen few if any in-depth accounts of civilians hurt or killed by the bombing–so it’s hard for them to put on a human face on this abstract suffering, if they at all remember that “collateral damage” implies human suffering. And they are constantly reassured by their media that the military is doing everything it can to prevent civilian killings. That may well be the case though, for the last few days some, tragic mistakes have been made killing many people. (See the links posted in the DEHUMANIZATION thread.) What’s really a problem as I see it is the mainstream media: who have decided that it’s best for US citizens not to see these images or hear much about these stories lest they lose their enthusiasm for war. This seems to me to treat the American people as though they were sheep, (as well as insensitive, blustering boneheads).
That is an incorrect analogy, msmith537. Of course anyone would care more about something which happened to himself as opposed to someone else. Of course you would care more if you were being bombed, or if your family or friends were being bombed, than if a group of strangers were being bombed, whatever their nationality. The question is - why do you care more about an American person whom you don’t know than about a non-American person whom you don’t know?
In this particular circumstance a very valid reason would be that an attack upon Americans potentially endangers you (or your friends and family), whereas an attack upon Afghans does not directly endanger you or anyone you know.
This doesn’t really account for the increased concern for Americans killed or hurt accidentally, as in Palve’s example of a 'plane crash.
There was recently a long article telling how the military felt they were fighting with one hand tied behind their backs because they had to get authorization from the US for every target and the authorization was denied if there was the least doubt that civilians might be hurt. A couple of times they thought they had Ben Laden himself in their sights and they were denied the go ahead to attack. Maybe someone can find the article as I am going crazy and cannot find it. I think it was either MSNBC or Newsweek.
Ummmm . . . yes, it does matter how many were American. If my SO happens to be flying to Seoul, and a KAL plane crashes, I fucking sure want to know if there were Americans on board, and who they were.
That’s not quite the most idiotic thing I’ve seen you post, palve, but it’s close.
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Mandelstam *
Actually, I am often very proud to be an American, so I’m not especially troubled by “national pride” when and where it is justified.
[QUOTE]
And you don’t feel that an attack on our nation is justification for national pride or armed retaliation against those who intrumented the attack?
Jeez! You would have thought I was talking about you specifically.
Yes, I suppose that CNN, MSNBC and the other news sources found on TV are somehow less credible than an assortment of obscure links to sites offering unsubstantiated opinion, conspiracy theories, and rhetoric from fringe political groups.
This comment makes no sense. What does my enlisting in the US Army have to do with anything?
I fully support our troops taking any action which would ensure their safety in their defense of our country. That means a few civilians are going to get killed because it’s safer to drop a bomb from an airplane than to drive it to the target doorstep in the trunk of a Humm-Vee.
I believe most Americans are intelligent enough to realize that “collateral damage” is military euphemism for “civilians accidently being blasted to bits by bomb shrapnel”. I also believe that many Americans have seen enough war movies to imagine what that looks like. I don’t see any benefit to showing sensationalized photos of people-parts.
Also, if I need to be reminded of what collateral damage looks like, its just a quick subway ride down to the giant crater next to my old office. While it is tragic that innocent people die in war, please try to remember that we didn’t start this.
Because an attack against Americans simply because they are Americans could just as easily have been an attack against me or someone I actually do care about. You really answered your own question. Americans identy with other Americans just like every other nationality. So in other words, yes they may be strangers but not as much as someone from a totally diferent country.
Palve, biography: I am 16 years old and I live about 5 mi NE of the middle of nowhere. I am an atheist and a Marxist, so you’ll hear me rant a lot. 
You know, this got me thinking, with teenagers knowing everything and their parents knowing so little, why don’t we just let the teenagers run the world?
OOPS! My previous post was meant to go in Palve’s thread in the pit Fuck The Government
I provided an answer to my question regarding this particular event (or any event which involves a deliberate attack on a nation).
Although I don’t really understand the sentiment, I think your last sentence answers the question as far as other situations are concerned.