Well, clair, what if Timothy McVeigh performed his act partly because he knew his family would be provided for if he pulled it off? Furthermore, what if there were an organization here in the United States which specifically aided the families of those who did such things? Would we tolerate such a thing?
By accepting aid and comfort, these families are supporting the terrorist networks. This is a major problem.
However, I just can’t come around to my original idea. Harassment, maybe, but murder? Can’t do it.
“Disgraced” and “made to suffer” by whom? By Uncle Sam, who will go, “Neener neener” at them from the other side of the world? Oh, the humiliation…
“Imprisoned” by whom? By Uncle Sam, who will send in the 82nd Airborne to arrest them all–grandmas, babies, nieces, and nephews–and drag 'em all back to Leavenworth?
Or “disgraced, imprisoned, made to suffer” by the rest of their culture? But then you’re proposing nothing less than an entire revamp of their whole culture. The families don’t get support just from amongst themselves–it’s the entire culture that supports them. How you gonna change that?
Okay, but stop it–how? Should we leaflet them from airplanes, “OSTRACIZE the FAMILY of ABDUL AZIZ ALOMARI!”
You’re saying, “If we could only change their minds about their values, we wouldn’t have this problem.” Well, yeah, and if pigs had wings, they’d be flying pigs. So?
I suppose we could just unleash the entire 82nd Airborne, take over the country, and turn them all on to Women’s Lib, Pilates, and crystal power. How long you think it’d take before we had an SUV in every driveway and a ButterBall[sup]R[/sup] Roasting Broiler in every kitchen?
Um, maybe I’m missing something here. Doesn’t this mean that Abdul Aziz Alomari is responsible for the actions of Abdul Aziz Alomari? So why should Mrs. Abdul Aziz Alomari be held responsible for the actions of Mr. Abdul Aziz Alomari?
Since it seems physically impossible for Dubya to arrest families who are in Afghanistan, let us now bring into the discussion the issue of the U.S.-based families.
You evidently do not subscribe to American notion that each individual is accountable for his/her own actions? You evidently hope that Dubya also turns out not to subscribe to this notion, and throws all their Islamic asses in jail? Would this be a good time to quote that thing about, “They came for So-and-so, and I said nothing, because I was such-and-such…” and the lecture on “The Slow Erosion Of Our Civil Rights”?
Or is it that Dubya should only not subscribe to this notion as long as it concerns people in foreign countries?
Or is it that Dubya should only not subscribe to this notion as long as it concerns people of different races and/or religions?
Or is it that Dubya should only not subscribe to this notion as long as it concerns “criminals”? So I guess that means that Mildred Frazer and William McVeigh had better start packing for 7 to 10 in Leavenworth, huh?
Um, nope. By this same reasoning, you ought to go after Tim McVeigh’s mom and dad, up in New York state. And I can’t help noticing that the FBI seems to agree that “aiding and abetting” means “accomplices”, not “family members”. I haven’t seen any news accounts that mention arresting U.S.-based family members for “aiding and abetting”, but I have seen lots and lots about looking for “accomplices.” If the U.S.-based family members are “accomplices”, why hasn’t the FBI arrested them and charged them with “aiding and abetting”? Being “detained for possible immigration violations” isn’t the same thing.
They’ve made some “accomplice” arrests already, but AFAIK none of them are “families”.
You think it takes “courage”, to arrest the wives and children, just because they were the wives and children? Well, yeah, I guess it would, come to think of it, 'cause the American electorate would blast his ass right back to Texas.
The day I see that the Feds are arresting the U.S.-based wives and children of those 20-odd guys and charging them with “aiding and abetting” is the day I apply for Canadian citizenship, as America will have suddenly become the barbaric place the rest of the world claims it is.
Good point. But what if Tim McIdiot knew a head of time that his family would be wacked would he still have done it? I don’t think that is a good analogy though Tim McIdiot was a US citizen with rights thereof, we are talking about a foreign country that are terrorizing us.
We become no better than what we speak out against.
We condemn them for attacking our innocents, but then we turn right around and do the same thing. Two wrongs don’t make a right.
Hey Bill-so, if you are arrested for speeding, we should punish your family too?
The problem is we are dealing with nuts that don’t know wrong from right. And if they are nuts, their families are probably nuts to especially their parents. And remember they struck FIRST we didn’t.
Well if my parents are rewarded for me speeding, then they support my wrong doing so yea probably they should.
Listen guin, I am not saying I have a problem with this I am just debating on this side of the coin IF those whaco terrorist use biological or nuclear weapons on the inocent lives of Americans in a terrorist mode(in otherwords cowardly). There is nothing more evil than that.
I always wondered why God wiped out told the Jews to wipe out not only the men but the women and children as well. And with these terrorist it is starting to make sense. It is because their whole way of life is evil and it imbedded even in their children. Which is very sad but also very true.
Don’t know right from wrong, eh?:rolleyes: What’s bothering me now, is that in some alternate universe, an extra-dimensional doppelganger Waverly may be cutting and pasting this quote into his sig.
If the press accounts are correct, the wives and other adult members of the terrorist families fled the U.S. well in advance of the murders.
Israeli intelligence has noted that the adult relatives of suicide terrorists celebrate their deaths. The families are rewarded by their local communities and are aided by the multinational network of fundamentalists. Although their families often know their relatives are members of a terrorist organization, the families do not know that they are suicide volunteers.
We do not know now whether the adult members of the WTC murderers’ families knew that the murderers were in the U.S. to commit crimes. Nor do we know whether these family members knew anything of the planned murders.
If they did know, then they are accomplices to the crimes and should be extradited for trial and punishment - including the death penalty.
If, as is likely, that they did not know, then we should have no interest in them. If, as is also likely, that they like Osama, are celebrating the murders (more poems perhaps)then they are the enemy - and equal to the wartime citizens of Dresden, Hamburg, and Tokyo.
There need be no war at all, of course, if Osama and all his crew present themselves for trial. That, like Hitler calling it quits after Stalingrad and Kursk, is probably unlikely.
The children are of course innocent.
True, like good little fundies, they are being taught daily to consider Jews (and Americans) as vermin. No doubt, we will see 14 and 15 year old terrorists - just as we saw kids in German uniforms in 1945.
But just as we don’t fear the children of Dresden or Hiroshima, nor should we fear that our righteous response to those who war on us will make things worse.
It’s already as bad as can be imagined. It may even get worse. We are unprepared, with fifth columns scattered here and abroad.
Our enemies seek our and our childrens’ deaths. They already have the blood of innocents on their hands. And they will not stop killing until we stop them.
Final victory may take as many decades and deaths as the Cold War. But we have no choice.
Murder and mayhem are the tools the terrorists have chosen to impose their tyranny worldwide. Since they have lit the fire, let them reap the firestorm.
The morally outraged people seem to be forgetting that the terrorists are dead. There’s nothing we can do to the people who actually committed this crime. They were vaporized two weeks ago. As someone else said, the death penalty is not really a big deterrent for these people.
But, if the next wave of terrorists knows that while they’re up in heaven with their 72 virgins, we’re posting naked pictures of their mothers and sisters on the Internet, they might reconsider the whole cost/benefit analysis.
Although I can only guess at what goes on in the mind of a terrorist, it seems to me that someone who honestly believes that his death assures everlasting paradise would also believe that the death of his family would hold the same promise. The family’s death would therefore have no deterrent value.
Hatred is not justification for murder. That holds true in all circumstances - whether we kill them because they hate us and we consider them too dangerous to live, or because we hate them back.
The only conscionable solution is to bring the known terrorists to justice and work to change the attitudes of the children - remaining ever-vigilant for the resurgence of terrorism.
That’s my take, anyway. I want to keep my humanity.
And how, exactly, do you change the attitudes of the children when they grow up being taught that the food on their table was brought to them through the godlike actions of their uncle, who gave his life to send six thousand people who were actually innocent to their deaths?
In America, as far as I know, the families of criminals cannot reap profits from the actions of the criminals. This is exactly what is happening with those who receive material and financial aid as a result of suicidal terrorism. Where, I ask, is the humanity in that?
It’s already been stated by others in this forum.
[ul]
[li]Remove the organizations that sponsor terrorism.[/li][li]Do not allow a similar organization (or government) to take its place.[/li][li]Allow the peaceful teachings of Islam to effect change over time.[/li][li]Remain vigilant for future terrorists and remove them as quickly as quickly as possible.[/li][li]Get as much of the free world working on this as possible.[/ul][/li]
It’s my belief that this will effect change over time - which is the only real long-term solution to the problem, IMHO.
Well, that’s a fair enough answer for me. It seems as if there is a pro-active approach and a re-acitve approach, and right now my interest lies primarily with the latter. I hope you’re right, atypicalcarl, and I hope I can change my own point of view.
That’s the whole point behind my idea. The suicide bombers don’t fear death, obviously. Those that aid them probably do not either, but everyone fears torture and damnation. Yes, it’s a big step to take, and morally abhorrent to a lot of people, but I can’t think of anything else that would be as effective.
We already condemn people to torture, anyway, by sending them to prison where their being raped and beaten is almost a certainty. If officially torturing them is too much, maybe we could capture those who aid the terrorists or benefit from their evil deeds and put them in our worst prisons, reward the inmates for every day that they are kept alive but turn our heads away from anything else they may choose to do to them.
<< You evidently do not subscribe to American notion that each individual is accountable for his/her own actions? >>
That’s not the point. The point is that the cultures we are dealing with don’t believe that. They believe that the family gains great honour and prestige from having had a son who killed himself and took 6,000 infidels with him. The families are (usually) applauded by their neighbors, and celebrate the son’s death day as if it were a religious holiday. They may receive payments (cash or non-cash) from the terrorist organizations, as thanks.
Now, how do we change that? I don’t know. A start would be getting the governments to squash the celebrations, to arrest the families and confiscate their property. OK, fine, have a trial if you want to be sure that these families were supportive, and did aid and abet. Although I don’t know why these folks should get fair trials when no one else in those countries do. But that’s besides the point.
Or, indeed, send in SWAT teams to arrest them and extradite them.
I don’t propose the HOW, I’m just trying to argue that the concept is not so dreadful.
I don’t think it’s particularly fair or honest to spend half of a thread arguing that we can’t get the families’ own countries to ostracize or punish them because our cultures are so different, then suddenly switch gears and attempt to analogize from Dex’s proposition to McVeigh with the assumption that our cultures our similar.
Not that I necessarily agree with the proposition, but McVeigh did not grow up in a culture where suicide bombers and terrorists are considered heroes and their families are rewarded; the terrorists with whom we are currently concerned did. Any analogy which uses McVeigh and includes that phrase “by this same reasoning” is, it should be obvious, invalid.
Good point. But what if Tim McIdiot knew a head of time that his family would be wacked would he still have done it? I don’t think that is a good analogy though Tim McIdiot was a US citizen with rights thereof, we are talking about a foreign country that are terrorizing us. **
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Of course, wild…Why on earth shouldn’t an unwashed foreigner be killed? Especially if he’s the second cousin of a neighbor of the postman who delivered letters to a terrorist…
Yes, these guys are nuts, their families are nuts, and probably they babies will become nuts in time too. We should slit the throat of some babies in order to avoid the terrorism issue in the future. Besides, they’re probably not even good christians…
