I´d first like to state that I have read the whole thread and have more comments to make in the near future. (I need to discuss SOMETHING besides the recent “election”.)
This is either a very successful attempt at trolling (you don´t really believe this, IOW, and you have fooled two of our more intelligent posters, Polycarp and Gaudere, into thinking you do) or you are, shall we say, misinformed.
There are liteerally millions of people in the USA alone who have done this very thing (or close enough to it as to make no difference) and the percentage of believers compared to atheists is no different among this select group than it is among the general population.
These people are called “homeless.” And some of them have been conducting this “experiment” for their entire lives.
Well, that is basically why I have fallen away myself, other than all my own personal weaknesses – it never helped my faith that so many the spirit in me tried to reason with had all sorts of preconcieved notions about their own goodness.
Well, Mormons do have so much more to study! Jesus never studied, but we might wonder if he even had to. But here is the full quote in context from James I, and if Smith took it out of context and confused you my apologies.
I am certain you asked sincerely – but you must have faith first before you will be answered. James seems to be writing to people who already are keeping the commandments – otherwise he is rather rudely telling the rich in his audience that they are doomed (St. James, a troll?). So I would say this supports my argument (and, yes, I will get to you in a minute, Poly), otherwise I am not sure what this trial of faith anyone who is rich will fail at could be or the crown of life only the lowly shall recieve.
I have to admit I feel the same way. You only live once I know and I don’t see any reason to love others who wouldn’t lift a finger to love in return. And duplicitously, I won’t aid in God’s plan because God’s plan is going so badly, and it is going badly because of people like me who refuse to aid in God’s plan. And even when I am writing this paragraph I know I am lying – there is a lot of love out there and I owe it to those people not to betray them all as I am now doing. Why would I want to live the life I am living now when I could be living like a God intead? Oh well. As Mother Angelica says, “You don’t believe in Purgatory? Where exactly do you think we are?”
Objection noted, and that is the kind of feedback I’m looking for. I don’t know, though, if locking ones self up in a monastery is exactly in keeping with my idea – and even then, when I say “God” I don’t mean some guy with a beard flying through the clouds. The current Pope and the Dali Lama are good friends, and their religions have a lot in common, as do Buddism and Christianity, aside from their after-life economias, which I don’t think are as important as living a life in accordance with righteousness in this life. I also don’t know if Buddhist monks take oaths which may mean my parameters need to be ammended. Merely being a poor slave to the riches of others is not what I had in mind.
That is a reasonable objection, and I admit there is subjectivity involved. It would be as equally difficult to prove that when a person rubs there eyes they see flashes of color – it is ultimately something you have to see for yourself.
I am sorry there are so many false Christians out there who don’t accept the findings of science. I know the world is round; don’t take my ribbing of Gaudere too seriously! But I do understand your objections, and it is unfortunate you might never know the truth.
Close enought to make no difference, huh? Well, I don’t know about that. I happen to know that a lot of homeless violate rule number 2 on an hourly basis, because they beg for money. That is the exact opposite of giving money away, is it not? To repeat what I said above: merely being a poor slave to the riches of others is not what I had in mind.
I am a Luddite because of the Phone Book.
One person’s sig line can be another person’s parody.
When I said “close enough as to make no difference,” I meant it. It seems to me that if you give all your money away to anyone, poor or not, you have fulfilled #2. As for begging for money, what if the giver says, “Take this $1 bill in Christ’s name”?
Pilpul O yeah, well double pilpul on you pal! Actually, as I’ve mentioned elsewhere, Jesus does say eating food is OK in Luke and Matthew:
And the Sciptures plainly show both John and Jesus wore clothing.
And, Jesus did not just command this one this of one man, but also of all his disciples in Luke 12, as you may not be aware.
Well, I am not going to defend what every yahoo man-of-the-cloth has to say about Catholic teaching. A priest in Rome last week condemned fast food hamburgers as an immorality undermining the family and a typical of Martin Luther’s teachings put into practice. Next thing you know they’ll be excommunicating Ronald McDonald. Some of these guys are a little wack if you ask me.
No problem.
And also here:
I think that sums things up, but I could go on and on.
Well, being a bad steward may have its consequences, but I wouldn’t say they are terribly long term.
Well, I suppose if one were so ordered to do so, there is nothing specifically wrong with holding a piece of paper. I would perhaps want to know why I was being ordered to do so. And in any case, I don’t know what the taker could do with it which would not be inviolation of rule #1, since buying is the opposite of selling.
Before jesus dies he tells people to take up the sword and a few other things. Which IMHO means selling all you have and following jesus is kinda pointless after hes dead.
He who lives by the sword, shall die by the sword. So you don’t think there is any point in following Jesus, but in that other thread, you say heaven is a place you want to be? Well, that’s a new one!
Getting back to the OP – I think 1st Corinthians sums up the intelligence versus religion thing rather well.
Um… … generally sentences begining with a verb (with “you” usually understood) are imperative sentences. As in, “Jab, give me a break” or “[you,] Understand this explanation!” or “Watch for falling rocks,” etc. (and people said my B.L.A. in English would never come in handy)
Indeed. I think it isn’t a matter of intelligence, but education. If Genesis is the only creation story you know well, it follows that it would be the creation story you would most likely believe. My mother doesn’t really know much about evolution, so it’s not surprising that Genesis is the one she leans toward. However, the last time I saw her, we heard on TV the statement that human DNA and chimpanzee DNA are about 97% identical. This was not news to me, but it was to her. She said, “No wonder some people think we’re related!” meaning people and apes.
Except that evolution DOES exist; the only thing in dispute is its exact mechanism. The existence of aliens and ghosts is in serious dispute. But IMHO, it’s far more likely a human being will contact an extra-terrestrial than a ghost.
Except that they never stop until they devise a theory (different from a hypothesis) that most accurately describes the phenomenon in question. For example, Newton’s Theory of Gravity has been replaced by Einstein’s because Albert’s theory explains more observed phenomena than Isaac’s.
As Sherlock Holmes put it, “Eliminate the impossible and, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth.”
jmullaney, I would still be interested in an answer to my question from the previous page.
«So jmullaney, you’re saying that if I follow your procedure God will then create a miracle to prove to me that he exists. That would be very impressive.
What constitutes a miracle?
Or, since it happened to you, what miracle did God create for you to convince you of his existence?»
Keeping this in mind too, I can’t say there was any one thing – more a string of highly improbable events. All of which could be written off as minor violations of macro-phyisics in favor of quantuum mechanics, or even mere coincidence or “sheer luck.” But taken together, and considering the complere rarity I have of such experiences now that I have returned to a “normal” lifestyle, I don’t think they can be easily written off. But if you would insist on doing so based on the laws of quantum mech’s anyway, there would be no point in my telling you, because over six months I saw plenty.
Let’s say this is short for, “If it pleases you, take this dollar,” which has been known to happen, then taking the dollar would be contra-indicated by the parameters of the experiment. Such an offer is not from God, for if you ask God for a fish he would not give you a stone (or piece of paper in this case) instead, per scripture.
Any Theist, or one who denies that God doesn’t exist, has a back pocket excuse for believing in God: It’s called faith.
Many “intelligent” people have done some serious reasoning and fact finding, and they’ve decided to have faith, despite what they know… AND…this is OK!
Belief in God very often flies in the face of facts, and unfortunately it flies in the face of reason, which we are empowered with.
However, to prevent a rift between atheists and thiests, we must respect the belief decision of the other and concern ourselves with the following of some moral code, and recognize that this moral code is man made, and worth following.
Skeptics and critical thinkers who’ve decided to make all decisions free from the influence of faith will in time become atheists. Theists can always reserve the right to have faith, but this does not mean they are less intelligent.
I think Philster is on the right track. Faith is belief without proof. Reason is not involved. I put a lot of value in logic and reason. And, I think most intelligent people do as well. Some of these intelligent people, by whatever means, acquire faith, and what they get from that faith is of enough value for them to ignore any illogic involved. Because they value logic, they bring as much logic into their faith as they can, but in the end, I don’t think it CAN be purely logical. When believers try to convert me, they frequently try to appeal to my logic because I immediately dismiss anything apparently illogical. But, because there is an inherent illogic in faith, they appear ridiculous in my eyes.
jmullaney, for example, keeps trying to assert that everyone should personally perform the experiment he suggests in order to be fair, or else just believe him like I believe the scientists who say the world is round etc… This is ridiculous because the scientists in question have done their experiments with witnesses and under the scrutiny of governments, organizations, even societies that were initially doubtful of the results but who agreed, mostly, that repeated tests verified the conclusions. No such thing has happened with jmullaney’s suggestion. Do I have to dig up some specific idea that went through this process and show cites for the entire history of the idea from conception to its general acceptance? I’m just not going to do that. I’ve seen many pieces of this process personally and I know some of the hoops that a researcher has to jump through to get published in a respected journal. If you don’t believe that the scientific research process is tight enough, I don’t think I will be able to convince you otherwise.
As far as respected Christians go, I respect many Christians, not for their Christianity but for their actions and accomplishments, the same things I respect scientists for. However, none of the Christians that I know personally, and respect, has tried to convert me with any argument other than, “I know Jesus Christ personally in my life and it is a wonderful thing. I hope that you will accept him into yours.” This is fine and I have no problem with that. I am unable to oblige them because I am unable to have faith. I need concrete evidence in order to believe. I cannot conceive of a reason for God to hide himself. Something about revelation of God removing our freedom to disbelieve? I can see where God would want to leave us the choice of obeying or not, but why do we need the freedom to disbelieve his existence? Besides, concrete evidence still wouldn’t convince everyone. There are plenty of people who doubt their OWN existence regardless of the concrete evidence available.
The most persuasive argument for the existence of a God, for me, is that so many demonstrably intelligent people believe in him. This is a very powerful argument. However, given our culture, or cultures, I can see that there are many ways to explain that massive belief structure. If so many intelligent people can remain racially prejudiced in the light of modern knowledge, then I can see that any belief with cultural roots will be difficult, or impossible, to displace, especially when that belief can not be entirely disproven. I am not trying to compare the correctness of religion to racism. I am citing racism as a demonstrably wrong idea that still exists and saying that, since an extreme case like racism persists in the face of counterexample, the mere existence of faith among intelligent people does not necessarily imply that the idea is correct. I would not maintain that the evidence against Christianity is as conclusive as the evidence against racism.
Wow, this thread is inspiring me to be loquacious(Does that word apply to written as well as spoken language? I think so.). I hope the long complex sentences in that last paragraph are decipherable. I may have to grab a bunch of this out and bring iot together for an essay or a book chapter. I’m still working on an ethics book, if anyone remembers and wonders. I’m currently struggling over a chapter on capital punishment. There are a lot of side issues involved for someone who decides that the death itself is not the prohibitive factor. There are a lot of other costs and the rewards have been questionable. Since I am not trying to preach my own ethics in the book, but rather to provide a mechanism to develop personal ethics, I must explore a lot of territory in the examples I choose.
You have to have faith in anything before you can have proof. If you disbelieve something you will never have proof in it. Intelligence simply helps you have belief.
jmanually I don’t follow Christ because I can’t. I follow his teachings and do what he said. Simply wandering around doing what you feel like is not following Christ.
Though there is a much simpler way to have proof of god(from my experience). First believe in god and live in a way according to christs teachings. Second pray and have faith that the prayer will come true and it will come true. Pray as much as you like, as long as you do it following what God/Jesus said it will come true.
Simply put you can not use a test to have proof in god or someone would have already done it.
O yeah, well double pilpul on you pal! 
Actually, as I’ve mentioned elsewhere, Jesus does say eating food is OK in Luke and Matthew: