In some societies a visible religious group membership and a national group membership can coexist. In France one precludes the other.
These youths had no particular strong ties to their religious membership. Their glomming onto a form of militant Islam is the result of the human need to belong to a group that accepts you. The same factors that drive gang membership in the States.
According to this article, police have discovered a ‘bomb-making factory’, for making molotov cocktails.
So it looks like some of this is organized, and the intent is to keep this up for a while.
“Organized” may be a bit of an overstatement. Some gangs of young male thugs who are feeling that they having nothing to lose anyway are thrilled with the prospect of playing real life video games and are trying to produce Molotov cocktails by the dozens to keep the game going. They want this anarchy to continue for as long as possible. While it continues they experience a sense of power. Like preschoolers who misbehave knowing that they will be yelled at, but the power trip of forcing the reaction is still preferrable to being ignored. They are in control. Like a videogame it is a fantasy and when they get the “game-over” they go back to powerlessness and hoplessness. Even they know that. But for now its a trip.
Don’t get me wrong, nothing excuses these actions. Rioting accomplishes the exact opposite of what is in the best interest of their demographic. And there is no simple fix to France’s societal problems.
I didn’t say what kind of organization it was, but clearly there is some organization (as opposed to just spontaneous outbursts of violence as in the LA riots). Someone’s thinking ahead and calmly trying to build bombs and stockpile them.
But I’m curious - you seem to be very sure that this is nothing more than a ‘game’, and that it’s just gangs of young thugs. This may be true, but do you have evidence to offer that this is the case?
…because making a petrol bomb is so complicated and time-consuming :rolleyes:
What is “the best interest of their demographic”? How can a demographic have a best interest?
Oh, thanks for rolleyes. Making a petrol bomb may not be complicated and time consuming, but finding an abandoned building, collecting hundreds of bottles, containers of gas, and stockpiling balaclavas is not something you do on a whim in the middle of a riot. It suggests that someone is making an organized attempt to keep this going for a reason. Maybe it’s just a youth gang attempting make a big splash, or maybe it’s a political group seeing an opportunity in the riots to make a larger point, or perhaps it’s a terror group trying to leverage the riots into a bigger conflagration. Who knows? I merely pointed out that there is some organization going on here.
From what I have studied on rioting, there is ofcourse an element of chance and being the right place (or wrong!) but there is also a strong element of organisation - such as calling each other up and meeting in a prearranged area, getting rioting equiptment together, finding transport etc. Soccer hooliganism is highly organised in such a manner, even though it appears to most of us to be more spontaneous. People (mostly male) seem to get quite addicted to this kind of adrenaline rush.
I don’t know if someone has addressed this since, because I haven’t finished reading the thread (it’s late I’m tired), but I’m living in Paris, and I’ve been keeping up with the news. Yes, the woman was burnt, and I was disgusted, but that’s THE most violent story I’ve seen thus far.
There was another man last night who was knocked to the ground, and I just saw on the midnight news that some officers were hurt tonight. Yet, this is nothing like what the violence would be if a group of youths were trying to burn Billy Bob’s Z-747 or Susie Blue’s Expedition.
The media IS blowing this out of proportion. It is bad, but people are going on with their every day lives. I was at l’Elysees today, and no one seemed to scared.
If I didn’t watch the news, I wouldn’t even know there were riots.
Any leftist joining the fun? Anti-globalisation movements, anti-capitalist, ATTACK, etc. that sort (the “anarchists’ traveling circus”) Which protested in Seattle, Gothenburg etc. The way the media seems to prefer to spin the French riots, and most on this board, as some kind of social upheaval by an estranged and oppressed minority. That seems to be just their kind of struggle.
Also, I’ve heard the passangers on the Titanic didn’t feel the collision with the iceberg as but a little stirring of their tea.
Hadn’t seem this thread…its similar to another one in GD (though it doesn’t seem to be getting any more responses). In any case I’ll post this that I posted in the other thead. Seems things are getting worse in France, not better. I don’t see a lot of criticism for Chirac’s government on the board…any consensus by our Euro bretheren as to how the French are handling this spot of trouble?
1,200 vehicles nation wide between saturday and sunday? Gas bombs? Torching symbols of French authority? Gods…it almost sounds like a popular uprising. This seems to me (ignorant American that I am) to be much more serious than the news reports are generally making it out to be. Again, what do our Euro bretheren (and specifically our French posters) think of all this?
-XT
I was in the SF Bay area when the big earthquake happened, sections of the marina district, part of the bridge and a double deck freeway collapsed, dozens dead… but everything else was OK.
But if one only watched the news it was clear: San Francisco was destroyed! Thank heaven the World series was there at that time, when the series resumed I was very glad to see the media talking heads seeing the intact San Francisco skyline and saying in an almost whiny voice that “yes, it is still there!”
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4412316.stm
At least them yutes can’t get guns. :rolleyes:
No.
Yes. These groups fully support car and school burning. I think it’s the point 17 of their official common platform. Didn’t you read it? :rolleyes:
That it’s exactly the same thing that what happened a number of times during the recent years in the same areas, except on a larger scale (everywhere at the same time) and for a longer time (more than a week instead of a couple days). But it’s still the same small subset of the population in the same places, so it’s nothing like a popular uprising.
It underlines the seriousness of the problems in these areas, though. Maybe they’re actually going to do something about it when it will calm down (though thinking twice, probably not) instead of relying on the agressive “law and order” rethoric our dear interior minister Sarkozy has been using for long time in his populist bid for presidency.
Sam, I only know what I read and know enough to be skeptical of that. But what I’ve read is no wide scale organization. No, getting together a few hundred bottles and cans of gas and tearing up some clothes for masks in one of many abandoned buildings does not scream out organized significantly effort. That’s like “Hey kids! let’s put on a show!” level of organization.
But no, I wouldn’t say it is a game. Nevertheless the illusion of power it gives the participants is the same as in a game, and just as much of a fantasy. When it settles back down their power is gone again, and these thugs know it. Nothing motivates a bully more than the realization of their impotance.
Rune, the demographic’s best interests would be served by having the respect and acceptance of the rest of the French populus. This activity will only exacerbate the negative image of the group as a whole.
Clair, Law and order is important and all well and good. It just works better the more the people feel they have something to lose. While this increasingly entrenched underclass feels they have no stake in future opportunities, it will be difficult to impose law and order upon them.
Sure it it. But in Sarkozy’s case, it’s just a political show off. I’m sure he’s gleefully happy counting all the votes he’s gaining with each Molotov cocktail thrown.
Find an abandoned building in a slum? One minute.
Find bottles? Five minutes - the nearest recycling bank will suffice
Petrol? Another five minutes.
Balaclavas? Even if these take 45 minutes to track down, this massive organised operation has taken under an hour.