Pffffff.
That’s their own fault.
They ought to have had burka-clad teachers, nurses and librarians!
What on earth are the French thinking?
Seperate religion and state?
Oh noooos.
I think those muslims have every right to throw molotov cocktails to toddlers, hit a 61 year old into a coma and set a cripple on fire.
Don’t you?
Sometimes I just want to say, “Islam, the only thing all your disfunctional relationships have in common is you.”
“Racist” isn’t quite the right word … what is one word to describe ugly overgeneralizing hate filled stereotypes? My thesaurus doesn’t have an entry. Oh well.
Some American soldiers abused and tortured some Iraquis. Americans are therefore torturers. It is a part of their culture. Right.
American Black Christians had rioted in LA years ago and Black Americans are involved in a greater proportion of violent crimes than White Americans. Better look to the moral lessons of their holy books to understand why. Right.
Beware of excessive generalizations and oversimplistic answers. Even if they sound good on those AM radio shows.
Gum What exactly does “seperate religion and state” have to do with individuals expressing their religion by wearing a headscarf or a large cross or a kippa in a public place? What does that have to do with saying that any public identification with a culture of heritage other than France excludes you from French culture? French secularism is just an attempt to gussy up nationalism and intolerance.
There can be no discrimination in France, because the French refuse to accept that it can exist. Therefore it does not. I do not look. I do not see. Therefore it does not exist. All French are equal. Some are just more equal than others. And the "others’ have no real hope of ever becoming as equal.
There are no excuses for this abhorrant violent behavior. Those individuals guilty should be punished apropriately if possible. There is understanding of how and why it occurred and learning from it.
And then there’s trite hatemongering.
Gummy?
I have not (and would not) make a claim that Muslim culture had nothing to do with the situation. However, despite several links (in this thread or the two other threads running) to people who have noted that the rioting youth tend to be “secular” or even “atheist” in their beliefs, we continue to see posters making claims that it is all tied up with the religion of Islam.
And, if history provides any guide, there would soon be, (if there has not already been), some poster snidely claiming that if the religious leaders did not support the riots, where are their condemnations of the riots?
So, while there have already been several reports in the news regarding Muslim community leaders calling for calm and joining with Christian leaders to organize peaceful demonstrations against the rioters, I wanted to document the fact that the most visible group of Muslim clerics in France have officially declared their most serious condemnation, a fatwa, against the rioting. I fully expect that that event will be ignored by those who want to make this an issue of “Islam is bad,” but now those folks need to make a deliberate effort to pretend that Muslim society has been silent or supportive of the riots.
Wht has got my head spinning is some of the comments I’ve been reading from some of the “locals”.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/4414538.stm
What the hell. Those kids thought the police were chasing them so they hide in a very dangerous hidey-hole and the cops are to blame?
http://www.suntimes.co.za/zones/sundaytimesNEW/basket7st/basket7st1131081192.aspx
I’m sorry, but if you run from police, how in the fuck do you expect them to protect your ignorant ass from yourself?
Wht has got my head spinning is some of the comments I’ve been reading from some of the “locals”.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/4414538.stm
What the hell. Those kids thought the police were chasing them so they hide in a very dangerous hidey-hole and the cops are to blame?
http://www.suntimes.co.za/zones/sundaytimesNEW/basket7st/basket7st1131081192.aspx
I’m sorry, but if you run from police how in the fuck do you expect them to protect your ignorant ass from yourself?
A relevant quote from one of P.J. O’Rourke’s finer essays. He’s talking about Apartheid-era South Africa, but his point about hypocrisy is apropos:
The World is built on discriminations of the most horrible kind. The problem with the South Africans is they admit it. They don’t say, like the French, “Algerians have a legal right to live in the sixteenth arrondissement, but they can’t afford to.” They don’t say, like the Israelis, “Arabs have a legal right to live in West Jerusalem, but they’re afraid to.” They don’t say, like the Americans, “Indians have a legal right to live in Ohio, but, oops, we killed them all.” The South Africans just say, “Fuck you.” I believe it’s right there in their constitution: “Article IV: Fuck you. We’re bigots.”
From Holidays in Hell ( 1989, Vintage Books ). Highly recommended by the way, even for those who normally dislike O’Rourke. He really is at his best as a foreign correspondant of sorts.
What effectively could the French do to defuse this situation both in the long term and in the short? Assuming there is something will the French be interested in doing it…and what effects would this have on France? Culturally? Economically?
How widely COULD this thing spread? Through France? Through surrounding nations? Should (can) the EU take a hand in this and settle things down? What could/should they do (if anything)?
-XT
Originally posted by DSeid
The Koran? Islam?
According to the Koran, a non-Muslim is less than nothing: “To Allah, there are no animals viler than those who do not believe and remain unbelievers” (Sura 8:55). That is why it is necessary to Islamize them by force and by humiliation. And those who resist Islam and its founder must be chastised, according to the Koran: “Here is the fate of those who fight Allah and his messenger: you will put them to death or you will make them suffer the torture of the cross; you will cut their hands and their feet alternately. They will be driven from the country” (Sura 5:33). And, since the Muslims are realists, they take into account circumstances and make, accordingly, temporary peace or war: “Do not display cowardice, and do not call the infidels to peace when you are superior to them” (Sura 47:35).
I wouldn’t call it trite, though.
Oww, sevatopol, that was sooo sharp! Did you think that up all by yourself?
tomndebb, About the ‘fatwa’ :
The press coverage implies that issuance of the fatwa should be taken as a good-faith effort by responsible Muslim leaders to defuse the situation and end the rioting and arson. However, even before the fatwa was officially announced, the Muslim community announced in public and in English, that it was false.
Here is how the website, IslamonLine.net, covered the same event, before the fatwa was issued:
“UOIF’s chairman Lhaj Thami Breze cast doubt over the parties behind the accelerating violence.
“He accused several parties, including far-rightists and Zionist lobby, of fishing in the troubled water to “smear the image of Muslims and Arabs”.
“The Muslim leader said many of the incidents involving the burning of public properties remain ambiguous.
“ ‘The rioting, which started as a spontaneous reaction, is not like that anymore. Some parties are feeding these incidents,’ Breze charged.
“ ‘The perpetrators of such actions can never be Muslims,’ he averred.”
“The influential UOIF is one of the main groups comprising the umbrella French Council for the Muslim Religion (CFCM),” declares this website. And CFCM president Dalil Boubakeur met with French Prime Minister Dominique De Villepin on Saturday, with the purpose of “restoring peace.”
Source: http://www.islamonline.net/English/News/2005-11/06/article05.shtml
Since neither Jews nor far-rightists have any reason to change their conduct because of a fatwa issued by Muslims, it is the stated position of the Muslim leaders that it will have no influence on the continuing insurrections in France.
In short, the Muslim leaders expected, correctly, that the Western press would take the issuance of this fatwa seriously, as an effort to end the rioting and arson. However, the Muslims themselves consider it a false move, intended to make them seem responsible and law-abiding.
It is also interesting that Reuters says of the Arab and North African rioters that they are “assumed to be Muslims.” I guess that further investigative reporting is necessary to rule out the idea that they are Baptists, Catholics or Amish. Apparently the reporter and his or her editor either lack computers, or are unaware of IslamonLine.net.
[Italics mine]
And why would the Turkish prime minister say the riots had everything to do with the ban on headscarfs.
And why would Iran even mention the muslims in France?
Tamerlane The discrimination comes from a major source. Hint: It isn’t the French.
*Those who reject (Truth) among the People of the Book and among the Polytheists, will abide in hell-fire, they are the worst of creatures." (Sura 98:6) *
The worst of anything God ever created, whether it be the unclean pigs, or bacteria, cancer cells or the AIDS virus. Unbelievers, even those among the People of the Book, are worse than that.
The Qur’an breeds contempt for anyone who is not a Muslim. If statements like this would be printed anywhere outside of the Qur’an, the authors would be dragged before the courts for hate-speech
From The Koran Highly recommended by the way, even for those who normally dislike religion.
Gum’s a good example of the people in the Netherlands (on both sides) who are doing a pretty good job of marginalizing people. There are people like that in all countries here.
To be just, there are people that make the same argument in the states, but theirs is a little more ignorant because they come mostly from rural areas and have never met a Arab-American.
It is a problem throughout a lot of Europe (except Sweden as usual, not because I know, just because I want to keep the idea that Sweden is perfect, you have to have a control in any experiment, don’t you?)
gitfiddle is a good example of those tired old racists. There are people like that in every country.
They’re blind to any discrimination of muslims towards non-muslims. They believe that those poor muslims are ‘the underdog’, while it is obvious - for anyone who *hasn’t * got his head in the sand - that the poor muslims take every opportunity to smack the infidels, or unbelievers, to hell.
If Islam had nothing to do with it, why is “Allahu Akbar” shouted? Why are all of the rioters Muslims except possibly for a nearly invisible handful of neighbor boys who, fearful of showing that they won’t join their “pals,” then join in – not out of conviction, but out of fear of what the others will think of them, or do to them? Isn’t it worth investigating – why black Africans who are non-Muslim, or black Antillais, are taking no part in these riots? Shouldn’t the sparing of Muslim stores, and the attacks themselves, reveal what they are about?
Today, French counter-terror sources are willing to admit, albeit on the quiet and not for attribution, that clandestine terrorist cells may well be at the bottom of the current riots. They note the history of the Palestinian uprising, which kicked off in 1987 with stones and petrol bombs, only to evolve into a suicidal terrorist war by the late nineties. They fear this process may be beginning - not just in France but in the rest of Europe too, that the covert nucleus of trained and indoctrinated Islamic terrorists al Qaeda buried inside Europe is being turned against the continent, starting in France
Originally posted by gitfiddle
Ah.
You mean this?:
Muslims face most racism in Sweden
Muslims are exposed to the most racial harassment in Sweden, according to a new report from the Board of Integration.
Seven out of ten reports of ethnic discrimination came from people with a Muslim background, and almost 40% of those questioned in the survey said they had witnessed verbal abuse directed at Muslims.
The report, Racism and Xenophobia in Sweden, also showed an increasing intolerance of immigration.
Gum, have you ever read the Bible?
psalm 119:158 “I look on the faithless with loathing,
for they do not obey your word.”
You seem to deny Muslims the same right to be nominalists that most us from Christian countries hold dear. The Christian world is full of Easter/Christmas Christians. Do Muslims not have that same right? That question refers to their personal right, not whether their religion allows them. Surely, the Christian leaders wouldn’t accept most “Christians” half-hearted Christian convictions.
When you group all Muslims with the radical Muslims, it’s your fault that it becomes like that. You push them to the margins.
The reason most of these kids don’t listen to the fatwa is because they don’t give a shit about Islam, other than the fact it’s the reason they’re being discriminated against.
I’m a racist? News to me. Man, you’d be certain of that, I’m sure, if you knew me.
If you knew anything about me, you’d probably see why I have the beliefs I do. Among those hordes of invading Muslims people see, there are millions of people, of individuals, who don’t deserve to be denigrated as an image of a tool for some movement. That goes for China, for Iran, for Taoism, for Islam, for France, and any other country/movement/belief of which people speak and say what “they” do.
Fine, guess I shouldn’t include a Sweden joke in a serious conversation. Sweden always seems to be the exception when talking about issues in Europe. My mistake.
Gum, I’m not defending the people that are perpetuating violence. I’m defending the people who see their religion as one of peace (whether you see it as that or not, they’re the one’s who can ameliorate the situation) or who were born into a Muslim family but don’t give two shits about religion.
For those Muslims who don’t see their religion as one of violence, they can teach the other Muslims their point of view. However, the more you push “the muslims” into one homogenous group to disdain, then you relegate the ability of the moderate muslims to change the POV of those who could become radical, because they’re seen as apologists or naive.
If anything, “those poor agnostics from Muslim families.” They’ll be discriminated against, and they’ll go to Islam where they’ll be accepted. Call it a tired excuse, but don’t tell me it doesn’t happen.
I just don’t understand why people reacte to being called spade by turning into a spade.
I’m young and naive, gum, so I’ve got a while before I learn that these are all just flowery misconceptions and that the world is really cold and bitter.
I’m sorry if I was ever insulting. It’s honestly frustrating to read what you’re writing, and I’m sure the feeling’s the same when you read what I’m writing. I don’t feel for the “poor muslims” but for the people. All the people on both sides. That’s all.
I’m going to stop responding to your posts. If you want, you can email me. Invite me to Amsterdam. I love Amsterdam. You can show me around and illustrate your points. I’m always open to being proved completely wrong. It’s healthy to be humbled from time to time.
Just remember that every time you’re cold or unfriendly to someone becuase he/she is a Muslim, your proving to them that no one will accept them. Your moving them closer to the radicals who will accept them.
There’s a documentary about Edward Said (author of Orientalism) and Daniel Barenboim’s Israeli/Palestinian youth symphony that I think is proof that even the most bitter hatred can be resolved by finding common ground and starting a dialogue.
Then again, I’m young and naive. Don’t forget that. I’m easily manipulated by the media.
Yeah P.J. O’Rourke is great fun, but how is this different from how any other capitalist country works? Capitalism discriminates against the poor, but surely there are many French who can’t afford to live in the sixteenth arrondissement either. I’m guessing you can’t afford a mansion in Beverly Hills either - even if you wanted. So when can we expect you out in the street torching cars?
Oh boy. But are you ever wrong about Sweden.
Sweden has one of the least integrated and most segregated immigrant communities in Europe. They’ve just made it near impossible, and in many cases outright illegal, to bring the question of immigration up. So nobody’s talking about it in public and on the surface everything still looks kinda ok, but just underneath resentment is brewing like no place else. Ethnic Swedes are fleeing immigrant communities in record numbers, crime has been skyrocketing for years, they already have the largest Nazi party in the world, etc. The state is trying to keep the lid on, but everybody expects the whole damn simmering pot to reach boiling point any day now.
And that’s the whole point gitfiddle. Not discussing it, is about the worst of everything you can do. And branding people you disagree with as “racist” or, as they’re wont in Sweden, the dreaded “Nazi”, only help to derail the discussion and coming to a peaceful solution that much harder.
Here’s an old article from 2002 about the conditions of the French suburbs which are now exploding.
The Barbarians at the Gates of Paris
Seems he had pretty much predicted it all 3 years ago. The French have been closing their eyes for years, hoping if they ignored all the warning signs, all the trouble would magically go away. Well they didn’t. Now for the tab. Reap as you sow.
Rune, I just want to clarify that I didn’t call anyone a racist, and I even used the word incorrectly. I said I thought it was a [discriminatory] action to classify this as a Muslim problem.
I also am not ending a debate with those who disagree with me. Not by any means. I completely agree that it’s necessary to continue the debate for their to be a peaceful solution. If anything, that’s my point. That’s why I brought up the documentary about the symphony.
I told gum, if he wants to continue, he can email me. I just feel like gum and I are talking in circles. I keep repeating myself, so I’m not helping the situation. Perhaps someone more adept with his words and agrees with what I’m saying could help me.
I see where gum, and anyone who thinks it is a Muslim problem, are coming from. I just don’t see it the same way. Perhaps, even, it is a problem with religion, but the people are a different story. The people, each individual, have a choice.
The difference between gum’s point of view and mine are very small, in fact, but I don’t know how to explain it.
Like I said, I’m here because I’m ignorant. I’m trying to sort this out myself.
As for Sweden, I have a good friend from there who wants to save the world. We learned French together and every time the teachers would talk about something in Europe, they used Sweden as the exception. They gave the impression that Sweden was perfect. So, I started joking about. That’s all it was. Obviously, I shouldn’t do that…
I would second these as the important questions. As Tom has reviewed, the other issues have been well addressed. Repeating the same points would silly.
Maybe because not all the rioters are muslims. Yesterday, they were interviewing the mother of one of the already sentenced culprits (who basically admitted she had zero authority on her son and had no clue what he was doing nor thinking). I strongly doubt this blond, clear-eyed woman was a muslim.
They’re mostly muslims becaue there’s a large majority of muslim in these areas. When you see groups of these youths, they’re mostly a mix of black African (and how could you tell their religion?) and north-African (in all likehood of muslim origin) but with also people of clearly european descent. Chinese people, for instance, don’t live in these neighborhoods. They’ve reated their own communities, for instane in the “chinatown” in southern Paris. Despite also facing racism, but to a significantly lower extent, black antillais are way more integrated in french society, and have been for a long time. Your typical antillais living in mainland France is a public servant, not a blue collar or unemployed.
As for the muslims part of this crowd : yes, they have a stance that besides “everybody hates us, so we’re hating everybody” , includes frequently talk about muslim people being despised, or talking against israel and the Jews, etc… But actually they aren’t “serious” muslims in any way, shape and form. Both the moderates and the extremist muslims (and in the later case, this worres the authorities) try to get them back in their herd but without much success.
They aren’t more likely to accept a religious discipline than discipline at school or at work. They’re cut (or cut themselves) from both the french society and the muslim community and don’t understand either (and aren’t understood by either. Everybody says so about them : french people, traditionnal muslims, their own parents, the police, etc…). They might be slightly more respectful towrds the local imam than towards the local police officer, but they’re sending both packing along with their parents. They’ve develloped their own values for internal use only and constitute a sort of cultural and social subset on their own. When it happens that they actually revert back to Islam, they stop to be a problem (at least not this kind of problem in the case when they convert to an extremist Islam).
That’s an ovrall good articles, though I would dispute some side comments (for instance, the young kids breaking in a parking meter at the beginning of the article in all likehood didn’t come from “la zone” but were likely roma kids of central european origin from a significantly worst slum in the Paris area. High level robbers using bazookas don’t belong there, either. Finally the attacks against Le Corbusier are quite unfair. Only the part of his concept that were cheap and convenient were used. Had they implemented fully his ideas, the housing projects would be significantly more liveable. But it’s quite unrelated).
And yes, all these issues were perfectly well known by everybody and were reported widely by the medias, discussed by politicians, etc… As I mentionnd several times, the only novelty currently is the scale of the riots. But all what happened during the recent days (burning social centers, pelting rescue workers, open drug traffick, petty crime, desperate and fearfull residents of housing projects victimized by local gangs, car burnings, et…) happened in the past , on a regular basis, in these disfranchized neighborhoods. But it was sporadic. Two night of unrest and car burning here, then two months later, the same thing there, etc…
As i wrote in another post in GQ, these riots might serve a purpose if they make the government try to handle seriously the issue (both from the “restore order” side and the the “solve the underlying issues” side) or even in some case simply to restore policies that were abandonned in order to spare some money as the prime minister genuinely admitted yesterday. But I must say I’m skeptical. I strongly doubt a well-thought, effective and long term policy will be implemented once the situation will calm down. Sooner or later they’re gong to revert to cheap words instead of effective action, IMO. Also, I suspect that a significant part of the population involved in these riots is already “lost”. If they could make sure that their little brothers aren’t going to follow their elder’s path, it would already be a significant progress. But, once again, I’m skeptical.
I would also add that the various Islamic leaders/clerics in all of these countries actively preach against integration and respect for secular society. They may not preach outward violence but they are just as unhelpful.