this one has been debated before. someone i forget who suggested:
4-5-1-2-3-6
i think that is best. you have the punch of vader being luke’s father, then go back in time to see anakin turn into vader, then zip into luke saving vader.
All of my kids have started with the original trilogy. After watching 4-5-6 and just this weekend we did #1, my 6 year old says ‘The Phantom Menace’ is ‘boringer’
Now I am the first to admit that george makes mistakes. But in this case, it’s just your opinion. Earlier Han was upset that Leia seemed to confide in Luke but did not share something with him.
So Han was obviously meant to get Leia. That doesn’t mean Luke is not used to create some tension between them.
The end of the story is Han & Leia, yes. Luke’s part is mostly to create rivalry or jealousy. True, that doesn’t happen very often, but there are scenes about it in IV, V and VI. If you choose not to connect the dots, that is your way of seeing things.
No matter how many times you claim to blow people’s minds, I still don’t believe the lines in VI were an accident. I still think there was some tension implied between the three characters that is finally resolved in VI. The fact that it’s obvious that it’s really about Han and Leia (with Luke somewhat standing in the way) doesn’t change that.
Ok, let’s go with it wasn’t a mistake. Let’s stay in context of the story. The best that can be stated here is that Han was frozen for a year (according to most timelines) and didn’t know if Luke had moved in on Leia. His assumption was based upon that confidence, but that’s Han’s error. We viewers know that Luke was talking to Leia about something else. Luke was telling her she was his sister. Also, do you realize that this is the only conversation Luke and Leia have in the ENTIRE trilogy? A triangle requires that there be some love interplay between 3 characters. Some Love Triangle when two of the participants have a single conversation where one tells the other she’s his sister.
And these scenes are? All you have is Luke making one comment in Star Wars, which is Screenwriting 101 level foreshadowing that Han and Leia are going to get together, and neither character follows up on the attraction in Star Wars. Empire Strikes Back has ZERO scenes of Luke and Leia even hinting at a possible relationship. Zero, zip, nada. They don’t even talk to each other at all the entire movie. Luke is recovering from being attacked by the Wampa and Leia visits him in the hospital, holds a conversation with Han the whole time and kisses Luke to spite Han. That’s not a triangle. Return of the Jedi, the only time Luke and Leia actually talk to each other and it’s about how she’s his sister and Vader is their dad. Han has a brief bit of jealousy (which we know is mistaken) for two seconds and then offers to step aside for a character that was never a threat to begin with. He could have just as easily stepped aside for Lando or even Chewie.
Watch the films again and/or read the scripts. You will be surprised to discover how much of the triangle is actually projected by the viewer’s expectations rather than ANYTHING actually presented in the films.
4-Holiday Special-5-6-Ewok TV Movies-1-2-3
Because I hate people. And the Star Wars cartoons.
Perfect!
My kids were lucky enough to be just old enough when 4-6 were re-released in theaters. Ah, to see Star Wars on the big screen as a third grader…
My suggestion?
4-5-6-The Rocketeer
Then: Holiday Special-Ewok Cartoons-Old Commercials on YouTube-StarWarsDanceParty-StormTrooperParodies-Bad tranfer from LaserDisc of Han shooting first- 1-2-3 … and by then 7-8-9.
Except the dialogue in VI that you claim is a mistake because you think so.
Apart from the kiss early in ESB to make Han jealous, there’s also bit at the end where Leia hears Luke in her mind and turns around the MF. How’s telepathy for a dialogue? And at the very end he puts his arm around her for comfort.
More likely the triangle was intended to be there as you yourself stated earlier, but it was relatively unimportant. It certainly was not actively used in ESB. The Han-Leia romance can devellop there relatively uninterrupted. (Because “I love you.” ‘OK, but what about Luke?’ is not nearly as good as “I love you.” ‘I know.’.)
Certainly, the movies are a bit opportunistic. In VI something is needed to fuel the romantic storyline so they bring up the question wether Luke is standing in the way.
So yes, it’s near-imperceptible in V but you can’t honestly say it does not feature in VI.
If you really want to screw with them try 4-1-2-5-3-6. Then they don’t know Vader is the dad until they’re over halfway through.
The relationship between Leia, Luke and Han may not be a full out complicated love-triangle with twists and turns, affairs or deceit. But there are tensions and a certain sense of something unresolved. Just look at that grin Luke gets on his face after Leia kisses him. For a minute there he was Luke Skyplayer. Even if it ultimately only was to spite Han Solo, it still combines the three in something that begs to be resolved.
Not to mention that they are three white, young protagonists who happen to share important events. The rests of the companions are robots, furry creatures or old fools.
I just addressed this in the previous post.
“Hear, me. Leia!” And the previous line she said to him was “It’s a trap!” Are you seriously going to try to tell me that that is a dialog? Plus, it’s right after the most romantic scene in the ENTIRE trilogy where Leia tells Han she loves him and he tells her “I know.” and he gets frozen. Do you * seriously* think that and then Luke putting his arm around Leia at that moment in the last shot while Lando and Chewie go off in the MF is a moment of Luke and Leia “romance”? You are projecting, dude. It’s not there, no matter how much you want to pretend it is. Luke and Leia don’t say ANYTHING to each other other than the three lines we’ve already quoted (It’s a trap, hear me, and I’ll be right back) in Empire Strikes Back. There’s no furtive glances. All you have is Leia closed mouth kissing Luke to piss Han off and Luke playing along to egg his friend on. That’s it. By the time we get to Jedi, Leia is not a slut. She’s just risked her life, along with the others, to rescue Han whom she has repeatedly told she loves and has been told by him.
Again, it’s not “near-imperceptible” in V. It’s not there. Luke and Leia don’t have ANY scenes together. They don’t speak to each other A SINGLE WORD until she has already declared her love for Han and even that is her warning Luke and Luke calling to be rescued from an antenna is hardly him pitching woo, let alone him talking to her. And AGAIN, In Jedi, other than that 2 seconds of jealousy from Han (right after Luke told her she was his sister- so it was completely one sided and mistaken by the character), where does any of that affect the storyline? It doesn’t affect them the whole movie until a throwaway line from Han so that she can reveal to him her relation to Luke. A throw-away line of dialog at the end of the movie where he has misunderstood something does not a love triangle make. Do you even understand what a love triangle is? A love triangle requires a character to be torn between two other characters. It doesn’t exist in these movies. Empire separates the characters the whole film. Jedi does too. The one time they actually are together is so he can give her some exposition about the third act and that they are siblings. NOT A TRIANGLE. Look at it like a screenwriter. What is Luke’s character arc? He goes from farmboy to Jedi warrior. Han goes from Rogue to romantic hero. He has no other purpose in the story other than a brief Deus ex machina in Star Wars.
See, you are projecting, too. Please read my other posts. I’m tired of responding to the same things over and over. After the Death Star rescue, and other than the Han Solo rescue from Jabba, they DON’T share any events. Luke is separated from the other characters most of the time. He’s off with Yoda or confronting Vader. It’s just not in the storyline for Luke and Leia to get together. Luke has his own destiny and he forsakes Leia to meet it. LUKE=JEDI. HAN&LEIA=LOVERS. There is no crossing unless you project more onto that kiss than is there. And so I don’t have to repeat yet again, during the kiss scene, Leia’s entire attention is focused on Han. Luke smiles to raz Han that he got a kiss and Han didn’t. Luke then leaves to hang with Yoda and Han and Leia start their courtship. That is not a love triangle that needs resolved. It’s resolved when Luke goes to train with Yoda. He’s not even pining over Leia while he’s training. He want’s to rescue “his friends”. Not “friend”. Friend’sssssssss.
I’m telling you, this could easily go in that thread about Obvious things about a creative work you realize after the millionth time. Everyone imagines there is this big romantic struggle between Luke, Leia and Han and I’ve methodically pointed out that it actually doesn’t exist in the films. It’s all projection from expectations of the viewer that isn’t actually justified by the facts.
Wait–why would you start with Prince Caspian and end with Lion, The Witch and the Wardrobe?
Even the poor sots who think the books should be read in terms of internal chronology put it at:
Magician’s Nephew (6)
Lion (1)
Horse and his Boy (5?)
Prince Caspian (2)
Dawn Treader (3)
Silver Chair, (4?)
Last Battle (7)
Seriously–why would you start with Prince Caspian?
PS: Star Wars: 4,5,6, stop.
I’m going to start my kids with 4-5-6, but if they’re like me they won’t get past 5. I have never seen Return of the Jedi. I lost interest after The Empire Strikes Back. Hell, I lost interest during The Empire Strikes Back - it was a complete surprise to me to find out years later (I saw it in its initial run) that Vader was Luke’s father. I must have been so bored that I wasn’t even paying attention by that point.
Well, if you’re tired, why do you do it? Anyway, it seems al you do is repeat the same arguments, most of all that there is no dialogue. Well movies aren’t just about dialogue. You still haven’t satisfactorily explained the two references in VI.
Incidentally, I don’t think ANYONE here claimed it was a big romantic struggle between the 3 of them. But you are the only one who seems to deny every possibility. How do you know?
From a writer’s point of view, it was a minor subplot that could be picked up when the story needed it. And that is exactly what happens in VI.
Writer #1: ‘Oh, this could really do with a romantic storyline. But what about?’
Writer #2: “I know. We’ll say that Han thinks Leia loves Luke even though it makes no sense that she would. It will end happily because she’s his sister.”
Writer #1: ‘Great idea. The audience will totally buy it.’
Many movies and series make changes like that when something is suddenly very important that none of the characters cared or thought about before.
Also, if people think it’s there, and there is no official source denying it, how can you really say that it is nonexistent? So what if there’s no reason why Leia should abandon Han for Luke? It’s a movie. Eye of the beholder and all that. What does it matter to you, anyway.
In addition, in the context of the original movie “Star Wars” (remembering it was a stand-alone as originally conceived, Lucas’s rewriting of history notwithstanding), Luke is the farmboy-turned-hero. Of course he gets the princess. Han was LUKE’S sidekick in the first movie: Luke is the one who decides to rescue the princess…Han just tags along. Luke takes on the Death Star–Han only follows afterwards.
Don’t you get it? Those references were put there accidentally! George Lucas fell asleep and gremlins came into his office and wrote those lines! Obviously he never had any intention of setting up romantic tension between Luke and Leia (despite the kisses in episodes 4 and 5, the obvious competitiveness between Luke and Han after the latter, and subtext throughout all three films so blatant that it’s basically text) - caligulathegod said so, and he has a direct line to Lucas’s brain.
I prefer to be disappointed in the order George Lucas intended.
Fine. Raj, Howard and I will watch the Clone Wars TV show without you.
Hmmm. You know, that does kind of explain episode 1.
yipee!
Actually, to me they just totally scream ‘choreographed’ with every step. They lack emotion and meaning on every single level.
Take a look at the duel at the end of Phantom Menace (skip to 3:15). The tension builds. Obi Wan’s anger rises. But then…straight back into spectacular emotionless choreographed fighting. Obi Wan shows no anger, just that he wants to put on a good show.
Now watch Luke vs Vader. This isn’t just as fight, this is character development. Luke is realising that anger is a powerful tool - now skip to 3:15. He completely disregards any style and grace and is determined to kill Vader. He realises he’s turning into his father. Anger leads to hate, suffering etc.
If you think Obi Wan vs Vader in A New Hope was the worst fight, then you probably missed the point in it being in the movie. It was revealing the character of Obi Wan, showing that he is willing to sacrifice himself to save others.
In movies 1, 2 and 3, all we have is combat. And it looks really quite brilliant, but it lacks depth. It’s nothing. Episode 3 has a lot going on between Obi Wan and Anakin I guess, but it’s just too damned slow. Most of it does nothing to push the plot and drive the character development forwards.
Of course, it’s probably possible to have the best of both worlds. You can have stylish combat and character development at the same time. With Lucas it seems to be either or.
Great point: for all that Jedi gets much (well deserved) criticism, it still may be my favorite, if only for the Luke/Emperor/Vader stuff in the second half. When Luke puts down his lightsaber and says “Never. I’ll never turn to the Dark Side. You’ve failed, your highness. I am a Jedi, like my father before me.”–he wins. Blowing up the Death Star, killing the Emperor and rescuing Vader were icing on the cake. The battle was won with that one line. And while Hammil isn’t the best actor, he nails that scene.