In the real world, I can do what I want.
4,5,6
Done
What’s wrong with having a film that can evoke that 9 year old in all of us? It does me. That’s why I’ve watched it these 30+ years.
In other words, you…are…projecting…your expectations on these characters something that is not supported in the film itself. You basically just conceded my position. But consider this: The hero DOES get the girl. There are two heroes. You are making the assumption that Han is the sidekick. He isn’t. Star Wars 4-6 has an “A” and “B” story. One gets the girl, the other achieves the Joseph Campbell myth thing.
Actually, I did mention this earlier. They DID in fact, originally intend for Luke and Leia to be a story element. Now, I’ve already pointed out (and cited) the exact moments and dialog that points to the fact that it was tipped towards Han and Leia from the beginning. The Luke and Leia thing was kind of half-assed in the beginning while Han and Leia follows the formula for romantic comedy pretty strictly, so if you couldn’t guess who would get together, I can seriously say that you just haven’t watched enough chick flicks. It’s chick flick 101. The actual argument here is, was there ever anything between Luke and Leia, or was there a love triangle? While Star Wars was indeed a standalone film and it is a myth that George has perpetuated that he planned it all from the beginning, they always did plan on a sequel. George negotiated the sequel rights (and merch) when he made the original film. In time, I can find vintage (pre-ESB) footage of Lucas mentioning the rivalry between Han and Luke for the Princess (and even indulging in a bit of misinformation that hints at Luke winning). I have it here somewhere (I think in Deleted Magic). It is in the original shooting script. There’s only one scene where Luke actually gets a chance to be alone with Leia and make his play. If they had kept it, then everything you say would have been valid. It would have left it open for the possibility for Leia to be romanced by Han, but then “upgrade” to Jedi Knight Luke when he reappears. This scene, as I described before, was when Luke is fresh out of the bacta tank and Leia comes to visit him. Luke tells Leia that she is the only one he ever…and they come in closer and closer and are about to kiss and then C3P0 cockblocks Luke and distracts Leia enough to ruin the kiss. (Here’s the scene! Watch at the 2:00 point) Exactly as he does later in the film when Han and Leia are about to kiss for the first time. If there’s one thing Lucas likes, it’s callbacks. He repeats lines, scenes, themes, etc. throughout the 6 films. But for something as important as the Han and Luke rivalry, it is conspicuous by its absence. He filmed the scene, but cut it. Why would he cut it? Simple. While he originally intended to have a Luke Leia Han thing, he realized that Luke’s path was to become a Jedi and there would be no payoff. Han and Leia spend the whole film together courting while Luke is off with Yoda training. When Luke is done training, he is going to confront Vader and eventually the Emperor. The only payoff for his rivalry with Han would be to confront Han. Lucas knew that he would never be able to shoehorn this into the plot, so he dropped it. He specifically cut every reference in Empire to Luke and Han competing over Leia. The radio drama has TONS of it. All of it conspicuously missing in the films itself. Plus, the whole time Luke is training with Yoda and Han is moving in on Leia, we would resent Han for messing with Luke’s girl. Instead, Lucas wants us to like Han. Instead of Han moving in on Luke’s action, we get to enjoy Han wearing down Leia’s defenses and becoming Leia’s lover. It’s a freaking Sandra Bullock movie by this point, which is why Empire is the best of the trilogy. Ok, I’ve managed to get you guys to admit that there’s nothing actually in the films to indicate the triangle (or Luke being in the running), but now you say that the intent is implied by our experience with Western storytelling conventions. How can I prove this isn’t meant to be evoked subliminally in the audience expecting the Hero (Luke) to get the girl. The fact that these scenes were specifically cut out, especially when it breaks up Lucas’ tendency toward leitmotif, should be enough to prove that he dropped the idea and went with a straightforward romance with Han and Leia and left Luke to follow his own storyline sans Leia.
Yeah, I get the irony. There’s actually something to address there, too. I didn’t intend to be insulting when I said that we view these films as 9 year olds. I could have brought up something else that is a major peeve of mine and informs my argument. My premise is that most people have convinced themselves through their expectations that Luke and Leia as a potential couple is blatant in the film when it actually isn’t. You guys kept insisting that throughout the thread until I laid out my position that it isn’t supported by anything actually IN the films. Since most people mistakenly believe the Luke and Leia thing, they react quite raucously that we are seeing incest on screen when Leia kisses Luke. I still remember the audience’s LOUD groan when this scene happens in Empire back when the special editions came out. This is part of why people cling to this belief. They get a sick thrill over the suggestion of incest in an otherwise mainstream (and arguably intended for children) film. If they process the film as I have laid out, then the incest is gone and we are left with a meaningless kiss from Leia. How many times has the three kisses from Leia been mentioned as some kind of proof? First kiss is a quick peck for luck between two people that have just met-(hardly romantic, unless you believe Leia is just a slut). Second is Leia trying to piss Han off and is not a romantically intended kiss between two potential lovers. Third is the one when Leia leaves Luke to help Lando fly the MF, and that one is no different than you’d kiss your aunt or gramma (if anyone thinks that one is romantic, then they probably think he needs a “cootie shot” after it).
For the record, my chosen screen name comes from my love of Roman history and is my (private joke) comment on religion. One of my favorite tv shows of all time is I, Claudius. The sequel to the book I, Claudius is Claudius the God (from which the name is referencing directly). In the Roman Empire days, the senate used to actually vote on who became gods. It just underlines that man creates his own gods and how silly it is. Caligula, at his maddest, declared himself a god and expected to be worshiped as such. The name CaligulatheGod is just a reflection on the madness inherent in religion. Plus I love the way the name rolls off the tongue.
Sure, but that wasn’t quite what you said. More like the 9-year old was stopping us from adult, rational thinking rather than it being a representative of childlike wonder.
But it’s not just *my *expectations. You said youself that the love triangle is a common “misperception”, it’s what a lot of people gather from the movies and they do it for a reason: there are certain themes that allow themselves to be interpreted that way, due to story-telling traditions that’ve been around forever. The difference is that you don’t think it means anything and I think it does. It means there’s an ambiguity concerning the relationships of Luke, Leia and Han, an ambiguity that lingers in the heads of the viewer, sort of like how ominous music makes us feel like something bad will happen.
The lady doth protest too much, methinks.
caligulathegod has done a superb job of completely persuading me that the love triangle between Leia, Luke, and Han was in fact integral to the story of episodes IV, V, VI.
We haven’t admitted anything, at least I haven’t, because the love dilemma card is still played in VI. It doesn’t connect very well after ESB, but neither is it impossible.
But you admit (well, you did mention part of this earlier to be precise) that the love triangle had been written, but (most of) it was simply discarded. And for once, George made the right decision because it would have been lame and pointless. So the triangle was largely cut out, but not totally. Bits of it remain especially in VI, enough to prove that it isn’t just imagination.
And Leia kissing Luke to worry Han still counts. It doesn’t mean there was any chance of Luke and Leia ever happening. It’s not that kind of dilemma because it’s clear who loves who. But nevertheless you can still consider it a bit of a triangle if a character does something like that.
If I didn’t know I wouldn’t have made that previous remark. But Nero was always more “popular” as a madman.
I say, the original versions of 4,5,6 first are a must, followed by 1,2,3 and then if still interested, the special editions of 4,5,6.
Wow. I hope I never get you on MY jury.
Jury for some TV show to become a celebrity or jury to sentence you to death? Sorry, I am happy to live in a country where the judge decides and not an easily misguided dozen of citizens.
I’m late to the party, but:
4-5-6-1-2-3; it will also come with an explanation of the literary concept in media res 
Also, I forgot to mention it earlier, but you actually made me reach for my copy of the holiday special.
It has absolutely no interaction between any of the three humans. Just wookies celebrating Life day. Near the very end Leia, Luke and Han are all together but they don’t talk to each other. This proves one thing and that is that a romantic subplot can be invented, discarded, forgotten and picked up again at will.
You have to admit it is amusing watching a stoned Carrie Fisher singing a song and then realizing she’s singing the Star Wars Theme song.
Anyway, I rest my case. I haven’t been rebutted yet. Just the same couple assertions (the Kiss and Han’s line at the end of the film) over and over and a lot of “no it isn’t”. We’ve gone from the triangle being supposedly blatant to there’s still bits in the movie if you count your expectations rather than what’s actually in the films. You are either going to believe it or not. Now I know what Diogenes feels like in the atheist threads. Once a mind is made up, no amount of facts will change it.
This would explain why you think you haven’t been rebutted.
Well, Han DID wink at Leia during the awards scene, so…
SPOILER for the X-Wing series: Lt. Kettch. It sounds stupid, but the books are hysterical.
No, they didn’t even see Obi-Wan. He immitated the call of a Krayt Dragon, a viscious predator on Tatooine, and of course they fled in fear at the sound.
It takes more than, “Nuh huh,” to rebut an argument. I’m beginning to believe that it is not understood what a Love Triangle actually is. There has to be something approaching active participation by the three parties. Rhett loves Scarlett who loves Ashely. Scarlett loves Ashley who loves Melanie. Rick loves Ilsa who loves Rick and Victor and is torn. Captain Renault loves Rick (yep) who loves Ilsa. Offissa Pupp loves Krazy Kat who loves Ignatz who hates Krazy Kat so he hits him/her with bricks, which Krazy thinks is a love offering and Pupp throws him in jail. In each of these cases, this love can be demonstrated and quantified. The love triangle informs the plots of their respective stories both text and subtext. All we have with Star Wars is Luke’s “Ain’t she pretty” in the first movie, then it’s dropped and not taken up again because his storyline is to become a jedi and confront . Leia shows no interest in Luke whatsoever. Leia and Han are textbook romance. Han bringing up some doubt at the end of the movie, which has not otherwise been made an issue hitherto, does not rise to Triangle. It rises to doubt on his part. A momentary manufactured obstacle so that she can reveal to him her relation to Luke. As a screenwriter, how else would you have her tell Han? “Ooooh, I nearly forgot to tell you. Luke’s my brother.”
OK, but how are you supposed to know that if you’ve only seen the movies.
No it doesn’t. 
This is a definition that you just invented. There are plenty of movies in which the love triangle involves two people fighting over a third, without that third’s overt participation. Including the Star Wars trilogy.
Yes, because I sincerely doubt Luke, Han and Leia ever did a threesome.
Psssssssst! Rule 34. You can do your own search.
OK, which two people are fighting over a third in Star Wars? Please show your work.