Too bad - I was going to ask how much money and fame it would take to get you to undergo multiple surgeries, lifelong hormone therapy, a complete change of wardrobe and having to put up a constant firehose of ignorance, hate and lies pointed at you every day for the rest of your life.
My last comments about Jenner were harsher than I intended. I have nothing against him personally. This transition so late in life is obviously something he felt compelled to do. I hope he finds the peace and happiness he longs for as Caitlyn.
The media circus around this story is what really bothered me. I know press attention is unavoidable. But they seem determined to make Caitlyn the poster child for the Transgender movement. It rankles that he’s going to get quite rich making appearances and giving speeches for the next few years. He may even eclipse the Kardashians. Kim may have to do another sex tape just to keep up with Caitlyn. 
But that’s how things work these days.
What gets me about people who are so freaked out about this and are spreading their own twisted conspiracies on what Caitlyn’s motivations are, is this… they conveniently, every time, side step the facts.
•Caitlyn started hormone therapy the first time decades ago, proving this is an issue she’s been dealing with her whole life? So? This is just something she’s doing now for publicity / money / more fame / whatever.
•Because her life was already in a fishbowl and would be regardless of how she handled this, it must be her intentionally courting the press surrounding every move she makes, right? It’s not that the paparazzi hounded her enough previously that blind items years ago were speculating at her transition. It’s not that an animated show (Simpsons? Family Guy? I can’t remember.) had an illusion to this long before it became reality.
Somehow, making it more public by controlling parts of it herself, deems it unseemly, opportunistic, and money-grubbing. It’s her fault for the over-saturation without nary a nod to the fact it would turn out this way anyway. Because people would be obsessed with the situation no matter what, especially if it had been attempted in private.
•Transgender definitely desire all the backlash, hatred, ridicule and intentional abuse they have heaped on them just for what benefit again? I agree with Gyrate. No amount of dough, quasi veneration or positive attention could entice me to commit to 65 years of ruse to pull one over on everyone. That entire mindset is just laughably ridiculous.
That’s genuinely very gracious of you, pronoun issues aside.
This is true, but Jenner is not the boss of “the media”.
And remember that transgender issues were already in the spotlight - you may recall the Laverne Cox cover of Time Magazinefrom a year ago. Note that the cover story is already saying that things have reached a “tipping point”. Caitlyn Jenner is high profile (and is significant for that) but is not as cutting-edge as the media may suggest; in addition to Cox, Chelsea (nee Bradley) Manning got quite a lot of press. And there have been various fictional representations of transgender people, from the film Transamerica to the Dallas Buyers Club to the *Transparent *television show which began last year.
The lifestyle isn’t being “shoved down people’s throats”; it’s simply coming out of the closet.
I’m not sure why it rankles; Jenner is also not responsible for the bizarre cult of celebrity that Western civilization nurtures. But as noted, since she’s already firmly embedded in it she might as well take as much control over the media frenzy as she can.
If you think being transgender is a "lifestyle ", you are not understanding us.
Sorry, that sounds harsher than intended. I know you’re being supportive, unlike the usual folks who genuinely concern me with their level of bigotry and thinly-veiled hatred towards my people.
I’ve been in the hospital for pneumonia in another country and thus missed this thread. I’m not certain I could add anything to it.
Interesting NYT editorial:
Gender issues are messy for sure
For some women, transgender issues, especially for those who are MtoF, sidestep the feminist contention that men and women should be equal and their brains are no different from each other. At the same time, women are different than men and vice versa in many ways. So messy when it comes to gender issues and equality
Thanks for the thought provoking article. Many women I know agree with this quote: “I fully support Caitlyn Jenner, but I wish she hadn’t chosen to come out as a sex babe.”
Caitlyn’s idea of a woman seems to be 1950’s cheese cake …
I also agree with what Jon Stewart of the Daily Show had to say.
After sharing an endless series of TV clips of announcers commenting on Jenner’s “hotness”: "Caitlyn, when you were a man we could talk about your athleticism, your business acumen, now you’re a woman, and your looks are the only thing we care about. Which brings us to phase two of your transition: your “comparative f**kability.”
Commenters compared Jenner’s resemblance to actress Jessica Lange; and one asks if Caitlyn had a better body that Kim Kardashian.
Stewart mocked the talking heads. “Look, we want to give a compliment here. We just need to make sure another woman gets taken down a peg in the process. It’s how we maintain the balance.”
“All human beings have three lives: public, private, and secret.” ― Gabriel García Márquez
To be clear, my comment was in response to (but admittedly did not directly quote) this statement in post 198:
I should have included the quote for context (and put “lifestyle” in quotes as well). Apologies for any offense caused.
This was addressed several pages ago - it can go any number of ways, and apparently it’s somewhat unpredictable. Transwomen may be attracted to women, men, or both. I tend to think that who they sleep with (if anyone, because an active sex life is not always the number 1 priority for people) is the concern of those involved and not the rest of us.
The number of people who will engage in a relationship with someone they know to be transitioned is small, but they do exist. For some people, the configuration of genitals is very important. For others it’s the person that is most important and they’ll find a way to work with whatever is there.
We actually had a poster here for a number of years that was involved in a long term three-way with a cisman and a transwoman who, since she inseminated the poster, who is female, and a child occurred, presumably had not had bottom surgery. So, outside the spotlight of the Kardashians and the tabloids people have these sorts of relationships and work things out
No one is compelled to engage in sex. Sexual freedom includes the right to choose celibacy for whatever reason. A lot of people who like sex and still have a libido nonetheless choose to not have sex for a variety of reasons. It’s OK to say no. Perhaps Jenner wishes to deal with mental and social issues before entering into an intimate relationship with someone else. It’s really no one’s business unless they are dating/intimate with Jenner.
More likely the effect of either recent dental work or badly fitting dentures.
Cis people tend to focus heavily on genitals and surgery.
Trans people tend to focus heavily on being socially accepted and passing with clothes on.
From my viewpoint, this is one of the defining differences between cis and trans people. For trans it’s less about the genitals and more about being accepted socially as the preferred gender.
Since it’s no secret, **Una Persson **married her wife prior to transition and remains married to her post-transition.
ANY surgery on the genitals or urinary system risks impairment of sexual sensation and response. Some surgeries are most likely to have such side effects than others, but it’s a risk for any of them.
That is one reason many transgender people choose NOT to have surgery on their genitals, especially transmen.
Taking the fame out of it, but assuming no financial obstacles to surgery:
- some transgender people choose to alter much of their body but not their genitals
- some transgender people, after living a long while with their birth genitals while passing socially, decide to have the “bottom” surgery after all
- since, for trans people, the social role and social passing is in many ways more important than exact physical configuration of their body, deciding how much surgery to have seems to be a normal part of the transition process. Which can take years. So, remember we’re seeing the Bruce-to-Caitlyn transition as it is occurring and it would be perfectly normal for there to be some decision making still going on and Caitlyn mind change her mind about some things. “Changing one’s mind” is not, I hasten to add, the same as lying.
If people have gotten significant surgery on their bodies I think it’s fair to assume they are serious about a gender transition. That’s not the only criteria, but it’s a very visible one that is easily confirmed.
Why wouldn’t she? Barring something like breast cancer, of course.
Remember we are seeing a TRANSITION IN PROGRESS. Why is it so shocking that there would be some ambiguity here? Honestly, I think some people except it to work like this: Manly man walks into booth. The door closes. Lights flash, there is epic music, some sound effects. Booth opens. Womanly woman walks out.
No, it doesn’t happen like that.
I expect I’ll be corrected if this is not so, but in my extremely limited experience with people undergoing such a transition, there is a definite period of experimenting with fashion, make up, shoes, walking, and other outward trappings of womanhood, and this is perfectly normal as the person seeks out what works well for her.
You know what? Ciswomen do this to - as girls. What do you think little girls dressing up and play-acting is all about? Anyone who has been a girl, or had girl offspring, has dealt with a period of crazy hair and make-up experiments it’s just that for cisgirls it happens as children/teens and is seen as perfectly normal. Why are we shocked that transwomen also go through a similar period of experimentation in seeking their personal style. It’s part of being a woman in our society.
Perhaps, because Jenner was legally and socially a man at the time of the accident Jenner’s attorney believes it would be less confusing in a court of law to keep keep the pronouns consistent and refer to Jenner as “he”. I suppose an equivalent would be if something occurred prior to a woman getting married and post-marriage it wound up in court, but the court decided that to minimize confusion the person would be referred to by her married name when discussing the legal problem in court. Or, for a precedent, there was a point where Muhammad Ali wound up in court and during proceedings was referred to by his birth name, Cassius Clay.
Oh, right, like no other 65 year old woman ever tries to be a young woman in appearance. Talk about damned if you do, damned if you don’t. If Jenner didn’t have feminization surgery she’d face being called a dog and described as a man in drag… and those are the nicer phrases I’ve heard proposed. She gets the feminization surgery, and she’s bad for trying to look as young and beautiful as possible.
The wealth of hair dyes, cosmetics, various “youth enhancing treatments”, and plastic surgery available tells me a crapload of normal 65 year women are very interested in looking young and beautiful as possible. Seems like a pretty normal attitude.
Add in being in Hollywood/Southern California and it makes even more sense. As do the 36D breast implants, although to be fair, Jenner is a fairly tall/broad shouldered woman so they don’t look too out of proportion.
The current practice, at least in theory, is to whenever possible ask the person his/her preference and go with that until told otherwise. If asking is not possible, make a best guess based on appearance/presentation.
Manning is a bit of a special case, as one’s opportunity to transition while in custody are sharply limited.
It probably does happen, but given the process required for a transition in our country it probably doesn’t happen very often.
I wouldn’t call what Jenner is doing “hiding” in any sense of the word. It’s rather out and in your face.
So… John Wayne, Charlie Sheen, Marilyn Monroe, and a crapload of other people working publicly under one name while possessing a different legal name are all assholes?
In the US, as long as no fraud is intended, you can use any damn name you wish and it’s legal. A lot of people use a nickname rather than a full name - “Bob” instead of “Robert”. Are they all assholes, too? Some people use their middle names rather than their first. How about women who change their names when they get married, are they assholes, too?
LOTS of people change their names, both informally and legally. It’s not a big deal as long as no crime/fraud is occurring.
How do you know Jenner is NOT taking such action?
I’m sorry - did you think a legal name change was something you just showed up unannounced and had done in 15 minutes? It’s not. Una Persson did legally change her name on transition and has spoken of how long it’s taken to get everything legally changed over. It doesn’t happen instantly.
Based on talking to a dozen or so transwomen on line… actually, no, it usually doesn’t happen the same day. It may, in fact, happen months or even years later, especially when there are major legal obstacles to doing so.
I’ve been researching this for an article and have found that not only does it vary, but it seems to vary over time, and over history. Nowadays, a rough estimate based on the research in-progress is that about 50% of transwomen are straight after transition, about 25% bi, and 25% lesbian. I am bi, but greatly prefer women.
Absolutely. When I give my talks and speeches it is still one of the primary things people want to know - “um…so…did you…um…get it chopped off?” I try to use it as a teaching moment for understanding what is more important in life, and what has lesser importance. Generally, it’s men who are obsessed about the genitals. The most common question from cisgender women is with regards to the impact on marriage and relationships. IME.
And in full disclosure, Fierra knew I was transgender before our first date. So she went into this relationship (married almost 13 wonderful years now) with her eyes wide open.
Success rates improve every few years. Again, a subject of ongoing data collection by myself, but for SRS procedures conducted after 2010 the rate for transwomen to consistently achieve orgasm is greater than 90%, and to achieve occasionally is about 95%.
Thankfully for my trans brothers, surgical results are improving steadily as well.
According to my best friend, a fellow transwoman who is an attorney, this is the most likely scenario, and very common in her practice. Not speaking to this specific case, but just saying it’s certainly a SOP.
Indeed. It seems quite unusual to see a woman over 50 embracing her natural grey, speckled, or white hair.
Agreed.
Sure. I’ve met them, but at each step in the process the chance of reversal/dishonesty decreases dramatically. Just as there are many more “internet diagnosed” folks with autism and Asperger’s as reality, there are many more “internet diagnosed” transpeople. Among folks I know who have started hormones after seeing a psychologist/psychiatrist and physician under the prescribed standard of care, my opinion is that less than 1 in 40 or 1 in 50 either change their minds or turn out to be not “fully” transsexual.
It was most certainly not easy, and I had the money to hire attorneys to help me. In total (it’s still ongoing) I’ve had to change my name and gender on nearly 150 different documents or accounts, and there are still some which pop up every now and then. In some cases, such as if you have complex financial matters, it can take a long time. I would imagine for a celebrity like Jenner, this is the sort of thing which requires some serious planning.
Thank you for fighting the good fight, Broomstick. Kudos.
seconded.
That’s the part I find confusing. Being a woman inside and outside, at least for her, means wearing superfeminine clothes, makeup, etc., but those are just what (some) women happen to wear in this country at this time (or at least, in recent times!). How does that become a universal desire of someone, written in who they are, if it’s a construct of this place and time? What does it mean for a female transgendered person who lives where men and women dress the same? Or does it just not matter and I need to move on from this line of thought? 
Oh, and I am assuming she is going with the “Kate-lynn” pronunciation since there is an E! special coming up called “Call Me Cait”.
Gigi what it means to be a man or woman is generally different for every man and woman. IIRC There was a trans woman professional race car driver. She wanted to wear nail polish on her fingers and toes, and to win the Indy 500.
I consider myself a man, and I enjoy sewing, cute little animals, and babies.
Right – so what does it mean to feel like a woman vs. feel like a man? Rhetorical question!! I don’t really need to know or don’t know that there is a way to know. I just believe what people are telling me and try to mind my own business.
For the record… I know one transwoman in real life who never wears a skirt or dress. Unfortunately, she transitioned in middle age and has few resources, and a bout of alcoholism has not helped her appearance, either. She feels she’d look ridiculous in a dress and thus does not wear them.
I know one via the internet and ultralight aviation who likewise transitioned late in life and does not feel she looks good in a dress. Most of the time she opts for a more unisex look and while working on her airplane or flying out of rough fields dresses pretty masculine - as do most ciswomen in similar conditions.
I think for some transwomen dressing very feminine is a way they have to express their femininity, and certainly there are some celebrity ones who have been in the public spotlight so either the hyper-feminine or the mannish looking woman tends to be the stereotype the public thinks of, the ones living quiet, unassuming lives who have the looks to pass but don’t dress in haute couture are simply never noticed. That, and certain types of feminine dress can either emphasize or diminish physical attributes. There are probably some transwomen who find it easier to pass in a dress and make-up than in sweats and t-shirt. Those who can pass in any form of attire… you’re just not going to notice them, regardless of what they wear.
Here (the quoted post and the new post) is what I was trying to express, said a lot more eloquently!
http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=18423480&postcount=48
Part of the answer can be found if you try to answer the question - what makes you feel you are a woman?
I describe my feelings thus: since I was very young I’ve just simply felt that I “belonged” in the company of other girls. I had a feeling from body language and undefined presence that I simply was one of them. Early in school I would sometimes get in trouble when the teacher would say “boys over here; girls over there” and I would naturally line up with the girls. I’ve always felt more nurturing, caring, healing, and just overall more directly in touch with my feelings and able to give empathy towards others. I’ve always liked being in “female” spaces. After my transition, I felt good every time I was recognized as a woman - whereas before I felt like I’d been insulted to a small extent being recognized as male.
I admit that if someone said “prove to me beyond any doubt and as a metaphysical certainty that you are female inside” and I cannot. Neither I think could anyone else.
FTR I almost never wear trousers, for the sole reason that I dress for success. Not only do I study women’s style and fashion, but I employ a fashion consultant to help me and others on my behalf. I have skinny boy hips - in a pantsuit I wear a 6-8 top and a 2-4 trouser. That makes me look a bit too unbalanced, except for when I have a bespoke outfit made. So I use dresses and skirts, with some flare to them, because they create an illusion of hips which are 2-4 sizes larger.
And males don’t feel this way? That’s a disappointing comment from you Una.
I can assure you a lot of males are quite capable of these emotions as well.