Actually, I have a very clear conceot of that continuum.
I am (sincerely) well aware that not every single instance of deliberate touching of a child to inflict physical pain in order to teach a lesson is illegal, or that every instance is equal. I am, however, asking those people who practice such touching to talk about it. Obviously, I oppose most instances. Equally obviously, they’ll find more voices supporting their positions than attacking them, if this thread is any judge. But they are so fearful of revealing that they’ve broken the very law they claim allows them to administer physical punishment, that they are putting up all sorts of reasons to avoid answering the questions I posed in the OP. What does that tell you?
I don’t know. I 'm just getting name, rank (literally) and serial number from him. I’m just speculating on the very limited information he’s willing to supply–under advice of counsel, I 'm sure.
“Shakey Legal ground”? Why? You don’t trust the jury (or judge) to know the diff between abuse and -non?
You make the argument that any physical contact (in discipline) is abuse.
Most of the rest of us don’t agree with that extreme black and white discription.
A hypothetical father who is of average build, giving a full powered blow to the head and shoulders of anyone, let alone his kid, is unacceptable behavior.
A father who gives a low power open hand swat to the rump of a toddler is not abuse, to me. (Yet that same man would be “The child abuser who gets hauled into court”, by you.)
Is it abuse if the dad grabs the kid by the arm, and drags the kid over to the scene of the crime (say the kid broke a window by playing ball in the house), and scolds him, guilty of abuse?
I would agree that physical abuse is absolutely no good and parents who suffer from such compulsions need intensive therapy and/or medication.
But by the same token, when I was six or so, I was walking home with my mother and stepped into the street, and nearly got hit by a car. Right then and there she smacked my ass and told me to never, ever step into the street unless I was damn sure that there was no car coming. I sure as sunshine learned that lesson in a way that a simple lecture wouldn’t have taught it to me.
So, the only way to take back a “beating” is to be beaten yourself. Shouldn’t it follow that the only way to take back an insult is to be insulted yourself?
Regardless, you’re simply wrong here. I posted above about the last time I was spanked, and it was not a big deal. It wasn’t abuse, it wasn’t cowardly, it wasn’t bad parenting. It was exactly what I deserved at the time. And it was far from the worst thing one of my parents ever did to me. The worst thing one of my parents ever did to me didn’t involve them laying a finger on me. It was just words. My mom once referred to me, to my face, as the only thing she ever failed at in her life. I’d rather she’d cracked my head open with a bat than say that to me. She apologized for it, and since then has frequently expressed the opposite sentiment. But the memory of that still hurts a hell of a fucking lot more than any of the incidental smacks or spankings either of them administered when I was a little kid.
Yeah, words can be taken back. My ass, they can. You’ve no idea at all what you’re talking about.
This is an absurd argument, Miller. Of course words can harm, sometime much more than a beating. Do you suppose that I’m arguing that a brilliant parent who delivers a speech that’s cleverly devised to destroy a child’s confidence is doing LESS harm than that parent who taps his three-year-old reaching to touch a hot stove a single time lightly? Color me very unimpressed by any child defending having been beaten as a child. We’re all defensive about our upbringings, but some of us have been abused (not me, thankfully) and some of us have not–but most of us will defend the parenting we got, and for admirable reasons.
I realize it’s painful to discuss some issues, especially in public. Email me, if you like. I’m sure you’re a finer person than you come off as in this thread.
I just gave you an example of ME using physical force on MY son.
I also mentioned physical force being used on ME as a boy my MY father.
I don’t fear the law, or even the wagging fingers of some people. A CPS investigation would be a sever intrusion on my life, and would cause more damage to my kids’ lives than any swat on the butt EVER would. After I was cleared of any wrongdoing, I would then have to explain to the kids about how CPS works (and does not in some circumstances), and how they should avoid Mrs. Grundy whenever possible. You see, dipshits making false accusations of child abuse have a cost to us - EVEN WHEN NOTHING HAPPENED. There is a cost of time, legal counsel, and the need to convice the kids to trust the police in the future. There is also ZERO recourse for the falsely accused.
But just possibly this is so threatening a subject that people prefer to offer inarticulate abuse and hijacks galore rather than simply answering the questions in the OP. I’m sure my openness about my own agenda (which has been caricatured beyond recognition in this thread, with my compliance) hasn’t made everyone feel all gooshy and warm and welcome here, but we are talking about a widely-practiced behavior that I find detestable, though as I say in far finer gradations than I’ve let on so far.
If we could have that discussion, maybe you folks who swat your kids would understand what I think about your actions just a tad better, and I’m sure I’d understand your positions better too. I’m glad to keep taking your abuse, if it means that eventually (page 9 of this thread?) we can get around to dealing with the points I raise in my OP. But maybe that’s too fond a dream.
So yelling across the workfloor “HEY PEPE LE PEW, SKIP THE SHOWER THIS MONTH? HOSE HIM DOWN FELLAS” is unacceptable. Good to know.
Although under today’s standards I was technically “abused” as a child on multiple occasions and it was absolutely done out of anger, rage, even, I suspect as I come to understand more about the human animal, a little sadism. (between the ages of say 5 and 13 I got everything from leather belts to slippers to a punch in the chest)
Still, I come down squarely in the middle on this.
First, not all spanking/swats etc are abuse. To think they are is just, well, stupid. The only way I learned some lessons is to take a swat to the ass every now and again, and frankly, because the threat was so often used if my parents didn’t follow up with a wollop from time to time, I’d have run roughshod over the both of them.
Second, it’s the business of the parent raising the child whether or not to use measured corporal punishment. It’s not the business of the state, the county or any level of government, and it SURE in the hell is none of YOUR business.
Third, though I have no children, I know I would spank if necessary. The first, last and only reason is because it works.
Now will come the “but it’s a [whine]cyyycle of abyouuuuuse”[/whine] cries.
Bullshit. “Abused” as I was, I’m as kind and as gentle as they come, even when you enrage me to the point I FEEL violent (which takes a LOT) one of the few things my daddy DID teach me is that acting on that violent feeling will only create more violent feelings. Punishments must be reasoned responses as opposed to off-the-cuff reactions. The facts are that there needs to be a looming punishment or incentive for children, and indeed for people, that causes them to fear doing the wrong thing. If you run into the street and like it, giving you a time out wont work for long and ultimately instills nothing. Now, if you run into the street and like it, and I tan your ass ,which you like MUCH less than running around in the street, then ultimately, we both win, and you as my child stay on as opposed to under the crosstown bus.
Sorry to hear about it. Maybe we should open up another thread entirely about how family services are evil and should be dismantled for the great harm and the little good they perform in our society. I have some things to say on that subject.
Maybe the cost of having child protection services that do such harmful things to good people is much greater than a few kids who get whacked around, even one or two who get brutally beaten. I suppose even a child’s death could be justified in the face of such widespread social injustice, asssuming that such injustice exists and that a child has ever died as a result of parental discipline.
So when I try to answer WHY people are reluctant to give specifics, you toss out a post that implies that I welcome the death of a child in exchange for not being bothered.
Are you really trying this hard to be an asshole, or does it just come naturally?
prr, you *started this thread *with abuse, though i’ll admit it was articulate abuse. I reiterate my surprise that you would elect to now castigate those who resort to abuse as being fearful and threatened when you yourself began the thread with it. And that you respond almost martyrically that you’ll keep taking the abuse if it means eventually people will start debating, when you’re chucking the stuff about yourself.