Invitation to all child-beaters

[pseudotriton_ruber_ruber]

@Algher

So when I try to answer WHY people are reluctant to give specifics, you toss out a post that implies that I welcome the death of a child in exchange for not being bothered.

Are you really trying this hard to be an asshole, or does it just come naturally?

Natural. I’m actually trying hard NOT to be an asshole, so you can just imagine what happens when I’m not even trying.

I’m aware of the fear of Protective Services, and I’m pretty well capable of anticipating ALL the categories of responses I would have gotten before I received a one. (Maybe I shoulda listed them in my OP? That would have been a friendly way to start things off.) It’s just that I find these categories terribly convenient, and they all add up to: “Not Gunna Talk About It.”

Now it seems odd to me, even given a sound rational basis for most of these fears, that people would engage in a practice that they think is perfectly fine, perfectly legal, a matter of personal choice, Ice Cream and Apple Pie, yet be totally unwilling, even angry, at the idea that they might offer even mild examples of punishment that even a maniac such as I would have no problem with.

Tell you what: I’ll start. I arrived at a restaurant with two kids (ages 4 and 8) in need of lunch, but the younger one threw a fit for some unknowable reason and refused to leave the car. Her sister was hungry (as was I) and I didn’t feel comfortable leaving her in the car as we ate. Every time I tried pulling her out, she would cling to the seats, and I saw that I was hurting her in extracting her from the car–besides I couldn’t think of a way to get her to behave any better inside the restaurant if I were to carry her in there. So I decided to put her in her safe and secure child-seat, strap her in good and proper, and leave her in the car while we grabbed a quick lunch.

So far, so good, right? No child abuse, no hitting, a lot of arguing and persuasion, to no avail. But it was very hard getting her to sit in the child-seat, and I handled her roughly in doing so. I pushed her back, I held her down while doing the straps, and I wasn’t particularly gentle about it.

When I got her trussed up good and proper, she very angrily told me “You’re a mean daddy.”

She was right. In retrospect, I should have simply driven on to the drive-in restaurant a few miles down the road, and ordered food for my kids there, but I got it in my head that we were going to have lunch in this non-drivethru place, and I stubbornly stuck to that.

I talked about it with her this past summer, BTW. She’s a very articulate 18-year old. She didn’t remember a thing. I remember it vividly–the weather, what we wearing, the exact words she said to me, which still pain me when I think of them. I wasn’t a very good daddy that day. There was a civilized but inconvenient solution to the problem I faced, and I chose badly in resolving it. If someone had seen my harshest moment handling my daughter roughly in the car, maybe I would have faced arrest, and maybe I would have deserved it. (If I had been arrested, you can bet I’d be totally defensive about my behavior that afternoon.) I don’t know.

Probably I did things akin to this several times as my kids grew up, but this is the one I remember most clearly.

[spinky]

PRR, a question for you: Is there any form of spanking which you don’t consider child abuse? Because if you’d come out and say “all spanking is child abuse”, then things would be a lot clearer.

[Palo_Verde]

Great. I’ll play.

I have 4 kids, ranging in age from 4 to 11. I have spanked all of them at some times in their lives. Now as much now that they are older.

They are calm, polite children who get good grades, have many friends, and participate in after school activities. We are a very close family and do lots of fun activities together.

But they act up, like all kids do.

exactly what the child did to provoke your assault

It wasn’t an assault. But we went to the Family weekend at the Phoenix Mars Lander Mission Control. They had a replica of the Phoenix Lander on a fake Mars landscape. It was blocked off by a low fence. My 4 year old boy climbed the fence to get a closer look. I told him he wasn’t allowed to do this and showed him the signs and we worked out together that they said ‘do not enter display’ He did it again when he thought I wasn’t looking
how old the child was

4
whether your physical response was immediate, or whether you considered carefully all of your possible options

It was very soon after. I removed him from the premesis and gave him two swats outside
how you decided on the exact duration of the punishment–i.e. only three slaps, or using a open palm instead of a closed fist.

I just made up my mind on the spot. That’s how parenting works
Whether you were dispassionate in adminstering the punishment, or in a state of emotional turmoil yourself

Neither dispassionate nor in turmoil. I was angry but not furious or out of control.
What you felt would surely be accomplished by physical chastisement that mere verbal or non-painful punishment (deprivation of privileges, grounding, etc.) could never accomplish

I thought he would pay more attention to the swats. And he did.
Whether you’re satisfied that your desired lesson was learned

Yes. He cried a little, then calmed down and we went back inside. He didn’t do it again.

I think I had a great family growing up. A loving mother who would move heaven and earth for her children. We are still close and talk on the phone all the time. She spanked me when I was naughty. She was never in the slightest bit abusive. I have no problem with the discipline she gave me and my sisters.

I don’t get this spanking = abuse idea. Makes no sense to me.

[Uncommon_Sense]

If you got all worked up over your daughter calling you a mean daddy, you are probably a bit too sensitive. That fact that you remember that many years later is proof.
That’s not necessarily a bad thing, but now this thread and your position on the matter makes more sense.

[pseudotriton_ruber_ruber]

I think I covered most of the questions in that narrative, but just in case:

exactly what the child did to provoke your assault: refused to leave the car

how old the child was: 4

whether your physical response was immediate, or whether you considered carefully all of your possible options: immediate

how you decided on the exact duration of the punishment–i.e. only three slaps, or using a open palm instead of a closed fist: a little more force than was strictly necessary to strap her in the seat

Whether you were dispassionate in adminstering the punishment, or in a state of emotional turmoil yourself: wild out of control.

What you felt would surely be accomplished by physical chastisement that mere verbal or non-painful punishment (deprivation of privileges, grounding, etc.) could never accomplish: getting to eat lunch quickly

Whether you’re satisfied that your desired lesson was learned: yes if the lesson was what I an asshole I can be. Otherwise, no.

[pseudotriton_ruber_ruber]

@Uncommon_Sense

If you got all worked up over your daughter calling you a mean daddy.

I didn’t say I got all worked up. It hurt my feelings, because there was some truth there, and I remember it, that’s all.

[Algher]

@pseudotriton_ruber_ruber

Tell you what: I’ll start. I arrived at a restaurant with two kids (ages 4 and 8) in need of lunch, but the younger one threw a fit for some unknowable reason and refused to leave the car. Her sister was hungry (as was I) and I didn’t feel comfortable leaving her in the car as we ate. Every time I tried pulling her out, she would cling to the seats, and I saw that I was hurting her in extracting her from the car–besides I couldn’t think of a way to get her to behave any better inside the restaurant if I were to carry her in there. So I decided to put her in her safe and secure child-seat, strap her in good and proper, and leave her in the car while we grabbed a quick lunch.

So far, so good, right? No child abuse, no hitting, a lot of arguing and persuasion, to no avail. But it was very hard getting her to sit in the child-seat, and I handled her roughly in doing so. I pushed her back, I held her down while doing the straps, and I wasn’t particularly gentle about it.

When I got her trussed up good and proper, she very angrily told me “You’re a mean daddy.”

She was right. In retrospect, I should have simply driven on to the drive-in restaurant a few miles down the road, and ordered food for my kids there, but I got it in my head that we were going to have lunch in this non-drivethru place, and I stubbornly stuck to that.

I talked about it with her this past summer, BTW. She’s a very articulate 18-year old. She didn’t remember a thing. I remember it vividly–the weather, what we wearing, the exact words she said to me, which still pain me when I think of them. I wasn’t a very good daddy that day. There was a civilized but inconvenient solution to the problem I faced, and I chose badly in resolving it. If someone had seen my harshest moment handling my daughter roughly in the car, maybe I would have faced arrest, and maybe I would have deserved it. (If I had been arrested, you can bet I’d be totally defensive about my behavior that afternoon.) I don’t know.

Probably I did things akin to this several times as my kids grew up, but this is the one I remember most clearly.

Actually, you are NOT starting, since I gave you my scenario earlier - though not with same specifics.

Now, I would argue that you failed in not preparing your kid for the event. That is where most poor discipline choices occur - by not planning for all possibilities, and for not having a conversation (yes, with a 4 year old) about the fact that you are going to a restaurant where they will need to get out of the car, sit at their seat, and stay there quietly.

However, what you have NOT answered is whether or not this worked to change your childs actions. You also have not answered whether or not your continued to have this problem or whether you found another solution.

In response:

My 5 year old knows his bed time (8:30 is books, 9:00 PM is lights out).
He was reminded of his bed time.
He was taken for books on time.
He was taken to his room on time.
He was told to stay in bed.
He chose to leave his bed.
He was talked to about not leaving his bed.
He was taken back to his bed.
He left his bed again.
He was told that he had now lost access to TV tomorrow (5 is old enough for delayed punishment as well).
He was taken back to his bed.
He left his bed again.
He got a swat on the covered butt.
He cried.
He was taken back to his bed.
I stayed with him talking.
I left.
He stayed in bed.

[Lord_Ashtar]

@pseudotriton_ruber_ruber

Sure you can. If I were to announce that I was off my meds today, and begged everyone’s forgiveness for wasting their time with all this silly child-abuse nonsense, and (to demonstrate my sincerity) offered a hardbound copy of my book “How to beat your child senseless and get away with it” to any Doper who requested a copy, and autograph it for you, and you thought it was a beautiful statement expressing one of your most revered legal principles and you believed me perfectly sincere in my apology, I think you’d call that unsaying what I’ve said here today.

A drunken mother tells her kid, “You’re a load I should’ve swallowed. I hate you and wish you were never born.”

Would she be unsaying it if the next day she apologized, blamed it on the alcohol, and took the kid out for ice cream?

[Dante]

Am I understanding correctly that you left your 4 year old in the car while you went in and ate? I just ask because my wife, as a Children’s Aid Worker, has told me that mild physical punishment is neither against the law, nor something for which they will open a case.

But leaving your child unattended in a car will get you a visit from the authorities and CAS.

Just wondering.

[Lord_Ashtar]

@sailor

Whoever said what you do is “speech” was being extremely kind to you.

He is an English professor, donchaknow.

[susan_foster]

You title your post “Invitation to all child-beaters”, and think you are inviting open debate? How high are you? And do you have enough for everyone?

Susan

[Miller]

@pseudotriton_ruber_ruber

Do you suppose that I’m arguing that a brilliant parent who delivers a speech that’s cleverly devised to destroy a child’s confidence is doing LESS harm than that parent who taps his three-year-old reaching to touch a hot stove a single time lightly?

Yes, that appears to be precisely what you are arguing. You’ve clearly and definitively drawn a bright-line difference between physical and verbal admonishments, with the unambiguous difference being that the harm involved by verbal admonishments is repairable, while the harm involved in physical admonishments is not.

[pseudotriton_ruber_ruber]

@autz

I don’t get this spanking = abuse idea. Makes no sense to me.

Thanks for the response. Spanking doesn’t necessarily mean abuse. That’s the subject I’d like to discuss here. Some spankings might, don’t you agree? A daily spanking, lasting twenty-five minutes, given on the principle of “If you don’t know what the kid did wrong, you can still bet that HE does”? That might qualify, no?

What you felt would surely be accomplished by physical chastisement that mere verbal or non-painful punishment (deprivation of privileges, grounding, etc.) could never accomplish

I thought he would pay more attention to the swats. And he did.

This sounds a little defensive to me. You didn’t administer some non-physical punishment in some parallel universe, did you? So why do you seem so sure that this was more effective (as opposed to more efficient or more emotionally satsifying) than a less physical punishment? (Remember, I’m just asking a question. I’m sure there are valid answers.)

[Lord_Ashtar]

@pseudotriton_ruber_ruber

Sorry to hear about it. Maybe we should open up another thread entirely about how family services are evil and should be dismantled for the great harm and the little good they perform in our society.

You consider that a fair paraphrase of what he said?

[fessie]

This is a very strange thread.
All I can think of is a line from Veggie Tales’ Yodeling Veterinarian of the Alps

“Now the moral of the story,
it’s the point we hope we’ve made:
When you go a little loopy better keep your nurse well paid!”

[Algher]

@fessie

This is a very strange thread.
All I can think of is a line from Veggie Tales’ Yodeling Veterinarian of the Alps

Oooh - we don’t have that one! I LOVE Veggie tales, some of the best hidden-adult-humor kid stuff out there.

[Pixilated]

@ivan_astikov

The only lesson I ever learned from the spankings I received was, “Shit! That hurt. Best not get caught again.”. But, I still preferred a beating, to being grounded. Hence, the more effective punishment was the least violent one.

I was the opposite. I was grounded all the time - but I still managed to get around it by forging my work schedule, sneaking out, etc. Grounded from the phone? Hell, I had a job so I bought one and hid it. And I babysat all the time so I was out of the house anyways.

back in my day I dont think groundings were effective. There wasnt much to take away - no computer, no hand-held game systems. Heck, didnt even have a game system growing up. Oh wait. I had one about the size of a calculator where you had to guess the number combination… anyways, groundings were never effective for me.

My oldest daughter, however, was a social butterfly so groundings were more effective for her. Afterall, I knew most of the tricks of the trade so she didnt get away with much. And usually punishment would be carried out in a manner such as scrubbing the toilet (everyone’s favorite chore) or raking the fucking pine needles (sorry, but i HATE pine trees).

This is also the one who got mouthy with me and verbally abused me - something I NEVER DID TO THE KIDS! She was 14 going on 20-something, said something horrible and in my state of shock and hurt I popped her on the mouth with my fingers. My intention was not to physically hurt her though - it was TO GET HER ATTENTION. She is much stronger than I am so she could whoop my ass any day if she wanted to. The pop was a brief pinch-like sensation (per her words) - it was the shock that made her stop. She threatened to call the cops on me (cuz ya, she’s so freakin abused :rolleyes: ) so I handed her the phone and started packing her bags. She thought I was joking until I had one of the officers from my part time job stop by for a little chat - explaining that he can take her to a place for girls (think juvie-hall) and that my reaction WAS NOT CHILD ABUSE.
This was a few years ago and she remembers the incident to the point where she stills feels guilt for the things she said and asks me why I didnt smack her any sooner… I love her and I forgave her but I will ALWAYS remember what she said. She cant take it back. I cant take back the pop on the mouth either. But who hurt who the most?

The OP is pitting those of us who believe it can be an effective tool and is over the edge with their extreme descriptions such as beatings - there is a pretty thick line between spankings and beatings, imo. And trying to belittle me and others with their verbal abuse is telling me that there is no reasoning with this person and my gut instinct is telling me that somethings not right with this person and they should probably seek therapy with a liscensed psycho-therapist or something. It’s like being around a time-bomb, just waiting for you to snap and what? Go postal on suspected child-abusers?

Pit or no pit - the OP’s statements were way out of line and to the scary-extreme.

Oh, and the last time I wanted to “beat” a child? A few months ago when I witnessed a 12 yr old healthy boy grab his 8yr old petite sister by the neck, hold her down, and proceeded to choke her. I had flashbacks what my ex used to do to me and my instict was to fight back by “fighting back”. Fortunately, I was also able to snap back to my senses just as fast and seperate the two. And before anyone jumps to conclusions, i do not know where they learned this behavior. Parents? Maybe. Older siblings? Maybe. I have noticed better behavior since limiting their TV and video game time when I am around.
Oh! And, I guess I abused my children when they got their ears pierced - because, ya know that kinda hurts like hell! Omigawd! We should propose a ban on all stores that carry pierced-earrings AND offer piercing services! not only that, but we should arrest any parent or guardian that dares to attempt to have their child’s ear, or any other area, pierced!

See, now I’m being extreme x1k (i blame it on the lack of sleep)

[pseudotriton_ruber_ruber]

@Algher

Actually, you are NOT starting, since I gave you my scenario earlier - though not with same specifics.

You’re right. I lost track coping with all the hijacks and diversions. My bad.

Now, I would argue that you failed in not preparing your kid for the event. That is where most poor discipline choices occur - by not planning for all possibilities, and for not having a conversation (yes, with a 4 year old) about the fact that you are going to a restaurant where they will need to get out of the car, sit at their seat, and stay there quietly.

Absolutely right.

However, what you have NOT answered is whether or not this worked to change your childs actions. You also have not answered whether or not your continued to have this problem or whether you found another solution.

It was a weird one-time tantrum–she was a very calm, reasonable child. That was the only major fit I can remember her throwing, or at least the only one I had a hard time dealing with.

In response:

My 5 year old knows his bed time (8:30 is books, 9:00 PM is lights out).
He was reminded of his bed time.
He was taken for books on time.
He was taken to his room on time.
He was told to stay in bed.
He chose to leave his bed.
He was talked to about not leaving his bed.
He was taken back to his bed.
He left his bed again.
He was told that he had now lost access to TV tomorrow (5 is old enough for delayed punishment as well).
He was taken back to his bed.
He left his bed again.
He got a swat on the covered butt.
He cried.
He was taken back to his bed.
I stayed with him talking.
I left.
He stayed in bed.

Hmmm. One light swat on a covered butt–sounds more surprising than painful. I wonder about the effectiveness of surprising him, if that’s what you did, especially since you just admonished me for not discussing what would happen with my daughter. Or did you warn him about he consequences of not getting back into bed immediately and just neglected to include that detail?

[Palo_Verde]

@pseudotriton_ruber_ruber

This sounds a little defensive to me. You didn’t administer some non-physical punishment in some parallel universe, did you? So why do you seem so sure that this was more effective (as opposed to more efficient or more emotionally satsifying) than a less physical punishment? (Remember, I’m just asking a question. I’m sure there are valid answers.)

I don’t need a parallel universe. I tried talking to him, reading the sign, and explaining to him why he shouldn’t climb the fence. To no avail.

Then I tried swats. More successful.

Just because I spank doesn’t mean it’s the only method of discipline I ever use. I have several to choose from. Time out, discussion, spankings, grounding, loss of priveledge, etc.

[pseudotriton_ruber_ruber]

@Miller

Yes, that appears to be precisely what you are arguing. You’ve clearly and definitively drawn a bright-line difference between physical and verbal admonishments, with the unambiguous difference being that the harm involved by verbal admonishments is repairable, while the harm involved in physical admonishments is not.

Well, for me that line is there, though it’s not an absolute. I certainly feel that they’re more easily repaired with verbal admonishments. Do you feel strongly otherwise? Why?