Your children are people!

The BBQ Pit
1

I know I’m going out on a limb here. I just can’t be quiet about this subject. I read a thread tonight here , and I just have to vent about some of the things I read.

First let me say that I am not wholly against spanking children. (Provided they are your own.) A warning smack on clothed buttocks, at the time of the “offense” and done without anger or rage, is acceptable most of the time. What I am taking issue with is the number of people, both IRL and on the boards, who seem to believe that it is acceptable to discipline children, including those not their own, in inappropriate ways. Now I know that “appropriate” is subjective. I will be using terms reflecting my own opinion in this post, so I am defining what is appropriate IMHO.

Hitting, beating, whipping, whupping, whopping or spanking a child with a belt, switch, hairbrush or other potentially damaging object is abusive. It may not always be legally defined as such, but that doesn’t make it not so. What would make one choose to use such an object? The only reason that I can fathom is that the object will hurt more. Therefore, you (the general you) are trying to inflict the most pain possible with each stroke. Some have said that these objects hurt less than their hand(s). Dear Og, have you no control over the weight and force behind your own body?

A child is a human being. They may be small. They may not yet understand fully the customs and rules of adult society. But they are people. In this, they are just like you, an adult. Does anyone have the right to hit or whip you with a belt? Of course not! Why then do you feel you have the right to do so to a child, just because they are your own? You do not own them. They are not property. Yes, you gave birth to them. Yes, it is your duty to care for them and teach them how to behave. But they are people, with the same basic rights as any adult. (No, they cannot smoke, shoot guns, drive, fly airplanes… I am talking about basic rights to physical safety and privacy.)

Surely you, a full-grown adult, capable of logic and reasoning, are able to think of some better way to discipline your child. Maybe time-out doesn’t work. Try something else. Doesn’t work? Keep trying! Absolute last resort? The form of spanking mentioned in the second paragraph. If that doesn’t work, I’d suggest that your child may have some deeper issues than just the behavioral indescretion at hand. Children require much more than discipline. They need an awful lot of patience and understanding as well.

Too often parents become enraged with the behavior of their child and act out of anger and frustration. They lose control and punish the child far beyond what is helpful or appropriate. It is very difficult for a child to learn to control his own impulses when Mom or Dad can’t control theirs.

Before anyone asks, yes, I was abused as a child. I was hit with whatever was at hand. This was the discipline used for any “step out of line.” If anyone can explain to me how a spanking with a belt is related to dirty dishes or a low grade (or trampling the flower bed), I’d be very interested in the logic. Funny thing is that my family- extended as well- considered this a normal form of discipline. After all, they had all turned out just fine. Sure, just fine. So fine that they did the same to their kids. Well, I did not turn out “just fine.” I seem just fine. I am not an axe murderer. I know how to behave in public. But for years, I accepted that anytime my actions were less than pleasing to someone else, physical violence was an okay reaction. Inside, I still cower when I think about my childhood self, praying that my childish abberations would go unnoticed. It taught me to lie, to hide my mistakes, NEVER own up to any wrong-doing and above all NEVER to get caught. It DID NOT teach me logical consequences to my behavior.

I know this was long. Thanks for reading, if you’ve made it this far. I don’t claim to know exactly how you should discipline your children. But I beg you- BEG YOU- not to punish them in the above manner. It just doesn’t work. I know too many people, grown now, who claim to be “fine”, but will reveal otherwise in private.

2

Personally, I’ve always rather liked my grandmother’s method of dealing with repeated, intentional misbehavior (the only kind I was ever spanked for as a kid). First offense, I was told to stop doing something and not do it again. Second offense, I was told that I knew that was wrong, and if I didn’t knock it off right now, we were going outside to cut a switch. Third offense, we went outside and cut a switch (I had to pick my own out, and it better be a good one) and it sat on the shelf. I don’t remember there being any fourth offenses. I’m sure there was probably one or two, just to see if she reallly would spank me, but I don’t remember it. There weren’t even that many third offenses.

Of course, I was never spanked for accidents, or for things I didn’t know were wrong, or for first offenses. Wait, no, lying was a first-offense spanking because I knew that lying was wrong. That only happened once or twice, though.

I don’t even really thnk that spanking with an implement is necessarily child abuse. Three to five smacks across the ass (the upper limit in our house, reserved for really horrendous/dangerous intentional misbehavior) with a belt is a far cry from beating the hell out of someone. There are plenty of people who do far worse with their bare hands than my parents ever thought of doing with a belt.

And yes, the belt hurt worse than a bare hand. That was the whole point. My spnakings were few and far between, but the ones I got hurt like a bitch for about 5 minutes.

3

As a kid who was spanked with a belt, my mother’s hand, and on one memorable occasion, a spatula, I have to say I’m still a proponent of spanking. Period. Pain is a motivator, and it communicates the point quickly and effectively…and if it is administered correctly and humanely, leaves no marks.

I always pitied the kids who were put in time-out, or grounded, or had their toys taken away from them…they “suffered” so long under this tedious punishment that they grew resentful. And just one big screw-up could land you in “the pokey” for a whole freakin’ week! Good lord!

Me? I learned my lesson in about five minutes, and was free to carry on the moment my ass stopped stinging. :smiley:

I’m not proposing child abuse, by any stretch, re: the OP, but I don’t think a couple of whaps on the ass from a belt, like I was given as a child, are going to do any lasting harm. You can’t reason with a five year old; they’re not logical enough yet to give a flying fuck. Pain creates a memory that will be recalled the next time the “suspect” thinks of doing something that might warrant some more pain. You should love your parents, of course, but you should also have a healthy dose of fear and respect mixed in with that love. Parents who let their children run rampant, and try “reasoning” with a two year old who’s throwing a massive tantrum, are not doing their kids any favors. Kids who don’t respect their parents won’t respect much else.

I think people who whip their children violently, or use a belt without reason, or punish small offences with major pain, are abusers by any definition. That’s not even the same category as people who use a spanking as judicious “therapy” for a kid who needs to learn a lesson.

And if they don’t learn 'em now, the world will teach 'em later.

4

I’m going with CrazyCatLady on this one. My mother had a similar policy. I got a few warnings, and sometimes, like a stubborn little brat, I’d ignore them. Ignored warnings iresulted in spankings. She never slugged me or anything, but she didn’t have a problem with her hand or the belt. She never broke out the belt for anything like spilled milk either. Whenever I got spanked, I deserved it. There’s a difference between punching your kids in the face or even spanking them for silly reasons and spanking them when they damn well deserve it.

As I got older there were fewer spankings for several reasons. One, I realized it was lame to disrespect and/or disobey my parents. Second, at the occasional slip up, a warning was enough. I began understanding reason as I grew older. The fully grown adult capable of logic and so forth deal does not apply to 5 year olds. When I was a tot, I understood that a belt on my ass hurt and I didn’t want to experience that again.

5

I like CrazyCatLady’s story. The object also gives the child a tangible thing to fear which isn’t the parent.

hyperjes, if the goal is to teach your child obedience. If your “warning smack” doesn’t hurt enough to get your attention, it accomplishes nothing. Furthermore, as I pointed out in the other thread, hitting with your hand is more likely to injure than using a switch (which simply doesn’t have enough mass to bruise unless you really go nuts with it).

Furthermore, as I cited in the other thread, the APA says that spanking has results. That study also shows the warnings of abuse–and it warns parents that might cross the line from spanking to abuse to never use corporal punishment at all.

When I’ve discussed the issue with my friend (mentioned) he’s pointed out that sometimes his daughter simply doesn’t respond to anything other than physical pain. And he has very carefully analyzed how to teach her using that pain without injuring her. I realize where you’re coming from, but I think you’re wrong.

6

emarkp, a lot of people think I’m wrong. That’s okay. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion. I agree that spanking does get results. That’s why I mentioned it as a last resort. And I never said that it shouldn’t hurt. When I mentioned a “warning smack,” I meant only that it shouldn’t be followed by, say, ten more. I should have been more specific.

As far as a switch not doing as much damage as a hand, I can tell you from personal experience that a switch (or belt) can cut. If your hand can provide enough force to bruise, that hand can put the same force behind an object, such as a switch.

On the “obedience” subject- Do you frequently obey people without explanation? Do you do it willingly, or because you fear the consequences? If the latter, don’t you resent the authority meting out those rules and consequences? Wouldn’t you rather know the reason behind the rules? If the reasons were stated in a manner you could understand, wouldn’t you- in most cases- willingly obey them?

I know that a two, three or four year old doesn’t always readily understand logic. But there is an alternative to spanking that will work for most children. (Even if it’s something different for each child.) I can say, in my experience, that almost every child can be taught to behave appropriately without any form of physical discipline. I taught preschool for some time. I had 20 three and four year old children for up to eight hours each day. Not one of them behaved ALL of the time. I was, however, able to deal with each one. Naturally, physical punishment is not an option for teachers. (At least in this state.) It took an awful lot of patience to work with a few of them. And a lot of time. I have no magic powers. But I have never encountered one that was impossible to discipline in some fashion. I figure that anyone could do what I did, if they really tried. Kids that age do not have long memories. They pretty much live in the here and now. So I doubt that they behaved because they would be punished at home later on.

Maybe some parents don’t want to take the time to see what works for their child. I don’t know. In the case of your friend’s child, I would humbly suggest that he continue to try other methods, consulting a professional, if necessary. But that’s just my $.02

I didn’t really want to start something ugly. Most parents love their children and want to do what is best for them. I know you all try to do what you think is right. I just want to save a few kids this kind of pain, if I can.

7

I DO want instant, unquestioning obedience from preschoolers and gradeschoolers. There are times when it won’t happen, but kids of this age need to stop IMMEDIATELY when they’re told to. Sometimes one does not have the luxury of reasoning with a three year old on the wisdom of rushing into traffic after a toy, for instance.

There have been parents/guardians who abuse children. Probably there always will be. But sometimes physical discipline is the quickest, most effective means of getting the point across.

For that matter, sometimes I’d like to see adults physically disciplined when they are positively guilty. Before you gasp in horror, let me just mention spammers and virus writers.

8

Well, the only thing about this thread is that you’re pretty much preaching to the choir. We all agree that beating a child is a bad thing, whether said beating is administered with an open hand or an object. The people who beat the hell out of their kids for every little thing a) aren’t likely to be Dopers, and b) won’t listen to or believe you anyway.

Yes, parents should go with what works best for their kids. The occasional controlled spanking was terribly effective for me. It was less so for my brother, and my parents used other methods on him. Time-outs wouldn’t have been the least bit of punishment for me, as I spent a lot of time off in my own little world anyway. Take away visits to friends? Feh. I tended to play by myself anyway. Take away my television priveleges? So I’d read instead. BFD. What were they going to do, take away my books?

As long as a punishment is reasonably and responsibly applied, and it works for the kid and the parents involved, I don’t see that it makes much difference which option they try first.

9

I realize that you can injure with an object. However, there is a bigger safety margin between pain and injury with a switch than with a hand. It’s just that simple. Anything propelled with enough force can cause injury.

Often, since my job requires it. It’s easier to obey when I do have an explanation, but often I need to obey first and seek explanation later. That’s the case for a lot of people. However, you seem to be posing a false dichotomy. If a “time out” or similar punishment plus explanation does not get a response, then a spanking may be the only way to associate something with displeasure, plain and simple. Furthermore, in the case (say) of running in the street, it is important that my kids be viscerally afraid of being hit by a car (survival instinct must kick in). A spanking can do that.

That said, my three-year-old has been spanked all of 2 or 3 times in her whole life, and it’s been a simple swat as you describe each time. There hasn’t been the need for anything wrong–she’s so darn sensitive to my voice that a sharp word is enough usually (typically followed by a hug and an explanation).

That’s another thing. Sometimes the action must be swift, and kids have to learn to obey their parents without dawdling. When your child is reaching toward the stove, do you want them to obey right away when you tell them to get away from it, or do you want them to wait for an explanation?

I’m afraid that anecdotal evidence is pretty much worthless. If you can raise your kids successfully without spanking them, more power to you. I do think, however, that you need to understand that most parents who spank their children neither intend nor commit abuse.

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I can’t believe so many people are for physically disciplining children. Personaly I would rather not teach my (when I get some) kids that violence solves problems.
So it works. Well I bet electrocuting captives works when you are looking to get information. I bet flying planes into skyscrapers works if you want to bring the world’s attention to the islamic hatred of America. Just because something works doesn’t fucking make it right!

11

I’m with Lobsang here. Even disregarding that it’s cruel and conducive to fear and resentment, it doesn’t work the way you want it to. Rather, it makes children try to hide their wrongdoings and lie, as well as teaching them that the acceptable way of dealing with [insert problem here] is instant violence.

I don’t care if you explain to your kid fifteen times before a spanking that “I’m allowed to do this because I’m an adult and you’re a child and you did something wrong”, because that will not get through. The pain will. That sticks. When that kid’s mate gets annoying, there’ll be a fight. Fifteen years later, when that kid’s girlfriend is cranky, she’ll get one upside the head. What you learn as a five-year-old is difficult to unlearn.

So there are people in this thread and elsewhere who got spanked and turned out all right (in their own opinions). Good for you. I’m sure there are kids growing up in Mexican shantytowns or Peruvian slums that’ll turn out OK too, if they live that long. That doesn’t mean that’s where you’d want to raise your child.

12

There is a difference between spanking in anger and spanking for corrective purposes. Yes, if the parents continually spank a child when the parent is angry, the child could associate hitting with anger (etc.)

However, what I read above is talking about warnings prior to an attention-getting spank. In my opinion, this country has gotten too touchy-feely when it comes to child rearing. Parents are parents and not “buddies”.

13

So let me get this right - all people who were spanked as children turn into violent abusers of others do they…??

cite? or is this just what you’d like to think from your little utopia where people reason with one another and are always considerate of everyone else?

Now I’m not particularly for or against corporal punishment. I was only ever given one real spanking (for stealing, when I was 11) and, rather than the pain - I realised it was a drastic measure to stop some very inappropriate behaviour. I didn’t steal again, not for the fear of a spanking but because I realised how bad that behaviour was.

The thing is, kids are not adults. They are developing and, in an ideal world, will gradually realise that other people have feelings and need respect as much as they do. It can take years for such attitudes to form completely and they will need guidance and discipline along the way.

My feeling is that spanking should be used sparingly (like anything, overuse desensitises) and explanations should always be given. Beating, naturally, is out of order and is a crime.

14

I agree with Lynn here. There are times when you must have absolute and immediate control over a young child. Patiently explaining to a three-year-old why they must not run out into traffic or touch the hot burners on the stove as it is happening is just not going to work.

Yes, children are human. But they are not adults. A young child cannot reason, cannot think through to long-term, or usually even short-term consequences of many actions, and has very poor impulse control. Children do not possess good decision-making skills and they are, on the whole, irresponsible. This is what makes them children. They are not just tiny adults, and treating them as if they were will get you nowhere fast.

Of course it’s wrong to beat your kids. No one is arguing this. Beating your kids probably will make them violent and resentful adults. A swift smack on the ass when they’re up to no good is not going to make them criminals, I promise you. I mean, let’s not get ahead of ourselves here. There’s a huge difference between a swat when the kid’s about to do something dangerous or wrong and repeatedly whaling on the kid with a blunt object.

Smacking a five-year-old does not teach him it’s okay to hit his friends. Children are remarkably adept at picking up on social relationships. It’s all part of being a social species. Kids are perfectly capable of rationalizing the difference between “mom hits me” and “I hit my friend”, because the relationships between them are clearly different. Not that kids are thinking in these terms; you just learn quickly what’s appropriate in what situation.

I’ll submit that not swatting your kids leads to just as many problems as beating them. It’s all about moderation. Kids who’ve never felt the whack of someone’s hand on their bottom quickly figure out that they’re allowed to do whatever they want and all mom or dad’s blustering and patient explanations amount to precisely nothing. A quick smack is a way to back up all your threats of discipline. All the bluffing in the world will do you no good if can’t follow through when push comes to shove.

Does this sound harsh? Unfeeling? Not of the fluffy bunny “children are our future” school of thought? Think what you like. The fact remains that more kids are spoiled and turned into nasty little brutes by overpermissive parents than are turned into violent adults by a well-timed spanking.

15

It consistently amazes me how criminals and just garden-variety people with assaultive personalities constantly attempt to justify their behavior.

I imagine the pedophile has some of the same excuses. As do the drug addicts. And, yes, I’m comparing them all.

If you don’t like it, maybe you wanna fight about it? But remember, as an adult, I’m allowed to hit back. Unlike the children you beat up.

(Oh stop, yes you are beating up children. Just because you can rationalize it in your own mind doesn’t make it any less true.)

16

You see, that just sounds so much more abusive than what people who believe in disciplining their kids are saying…?! I’d like to think you were being ironic but I’m just not too sure.

ratty - looks like our posts crossed and I wholeheartedly agree with you…you just put it more clearly than I did.

17

Read the next paragraph of my post, Brainiac.

18

And that next paragraph says:

By adding “in their own opinions”, implies that they did not turn out alright. Maybe they aren’t violent abusers of others but aren’t alright in your mind.

19

How should I know? I don’t know them. I was merely pointing out that the only source we have is their own opinions. And it’s not like people go around thinking they turned out shitty. Nazis, homophobes, child abusers, they all think they’re right.

[sub]Please don’t come accusing me of calling anyone in this thread a Nazi, homophobe or child abuser. I’d like to think we’re above that.[/sub]

20

I think it came off sounding a little sarcastic. You know, like saying "They are alright (in their own mind) :rolleyes: ". Maybe giving them the benefit of the doubt (i.e. they probably turned out alright) would have gotten a better response. Just like your statement about the shanty town kids (“I’m sure there are kids growing up in Mexican shantytowns or Peruvian slums that’ll turn out OK too”). Follow me?

And I’m not going to accuse you of calling posters Nazis, homophobes or child abusers. I understand your use of hyperbole. :slight_smile: