Your children are people!

The BBQ Pit
21

There is a considerable difference between teaching small children in a preschool setting - in which they are kept in one place (a classroom) much of the time, and are under constant supervision. In my house, I have two small children. A window in their bedroom opens directly onto the roof, and the screen is broken. I’ve told them a billion times that they are not to go out the roof. I’ve carefully explained how they can get hurt. I’ve outlined extensively the breaking of rules involved in going out the window.

They go out the window.

What do I do? Do I:

  1. Call them in and admonish them severely. Again. After all, I am an intelligent woman and they are bright kids. The fact that doing this several times hasn’t shown a bit of effect is inconsequential.
  2. Follow them around the house all day to make sure they don’t do it again. Of course, then I’ll get absolutely nothing done - like laundry, dishes, vacuuming - and they’ll get the impression that I exist to do nothing but monitor them.
  3. I give them each three smacks on the ass, and inform them that I have TOLD them they are not to go on the roof, and they will get the same AGAIN if they go out there, DO YOU UNDERSTAND?

Yes, but if you dangerously break a rule in my house more than once, I don’t hit you; I ask you to stop, and if you don’t, I call the fucking cops. I can’t call the cops on my kids and have them thrown out - which would assuredly happen to you.

22

question:
if so many other civilizations and cultures manage to raise their kids without any use of physical violence, how do you justify spanking or whacking or whopping, or whatever you call it, them?
(Rastafari see it a sin to make a child cry, a lot of african tribes never ever hurt or hit their kids, it’s simply inconceivable to them)

A child may be resilient, they’re also fragile, emotionally speaking. If and when you put a child on this earth, you did so for a very selfish reason: you wanted the child. the child did not ask to be born. In my opinion, that makes you completely and utterly responsible for that individual’s physical and emotional needs, for its happiness, quoi.

I agree that a tick on the bottocks (diapered or clothed or whatever) might have a very effective result, the fact is that no matter how little violence, it always leaves an emotional scar.
I know, I’ve been there.

Physical disciplining is usuallyy a result of a lack of patience. If it’s going to take 7 by 77 times to explain something to a kid, well, then so be it. If you don’t have the patience to deal with your own children, you might want to think about what your relationship with them is going to be like when they’re grown ups. And would you really want to see them treating their own kids (your grandkids, mind) as you did them?

Here’s something my mother frequently said (even though my dad sometimes beat the shit out of me):

Fysiek geweld is een teken van onmacht.

and since no dictionary at hand can give me a translation for “onmacht” or “onvermogen”, you’re just going to have to guess. Or you can ask Coldfire

23

Thanks BAM - you’ve saved me a load of typing there!

Priceguy - The message was clearly that spanking leads people to be violent. And arguing that ‘you don’t know them’ and that it is only ‘in their opinion’ is pointless. You have judged these hypothetical people by making the statements I quoted. Stand by that, or accept that you might just have overstated your case but don’t make excuses.

BTW, in the UK, Brainiac is a great compliment…:smiley: :wink:

24

I don’t have kids. I realise my word doesn’t weigh all that much in this part of the discussion. But based on what’s worked with me and children I’ve supervised on various occasions, I’d do this:

The first time I see them out there, I overreact. I rush there, yank them in, crying and screaming how scared they made me, how dangerous it is out there. That should get the point across.

By the way, my gender-o-meter must be seriously fucked up. I thought Zenster was a woman and I was utterly certain you were a man.

25

I can’t help but agree with this - to an extent at least. However, I do think that it’s a case of horses for courses. Some children mature more swiftly and will understand reason, the concept of danger and will be able to empathise with others. On the other hand, I’ve taught 11 and 12 year olds who seemingly have no idea that their actions directly affect others - or at least don’t care. I’m not saying that spanking would help or hinder - but that you have to have discipline that suits the individual in order to show them how best to succeed in life. In my book, that means respecting others be they peers, authority or anyone they may pass on the street.

26

I just don’t think that the question is as simple as “to spank or not to spank?” My hubby and my best friend were both spanked (responsibly) while growing up, and are both fine, morally upright people. I, on the other hand, was never hit. But I was emotionally abused for many years, and as a result, am currently in therapy.

My husband, in spite of what Priceguy would seemingly like us to believe, has seldom raised his voice to me, let alone a hand! Does this mean he’s never been upset or frustrated with me? Well, we’ve been together 20 years, I’d say it happens. Our children don’t get spanked (we’ve had to spank our oldest a few times, mostly for lying), but spanking is our last resort. Time-outs (for younger ones) and groundings (when older) have been pretty effective.

I guess my point is that it’s never okay to abuse a child in any way. But part of good parenting is recognizing what is and is not abuse.

27

You’re full of shit. These are the facts:

  • I don’t know them.
  • The only source we have is their own opinion.

I do stand by the statement that spanking leads people to be violent more than not spanking does. I’m not saying everyone who was spanked once then goes on to be a serial killer. Never did. I’m not saying that a beaten child cannot grow up to be a well-adjusted, peaceful, friendly adult. Never did.

I am, however, saying that children that are punished by violence learn, consciously or subconsciously, that violence is an acceptable, perhaps the best or even the only, way of solving problems. They can later rise above that by themselves or with help, but that’s no reason to keep using violence.

28

I agree, Martiju, kids need discipline.
But nobody ever said that discipline equels violence.

There are plenty of ways of disciplining without ever harming them.
As Roald Dhal said: children deserve parents that are sparky!

full of fantasy and ideas and fun. In my opinion, the most important thing you can teach a child, is responsability.
And there are a lot of kids out there who have a very big super ego, and are not guided by their ID, solely.

Responsable kids makes for responsable adults, and we could use a few more of them in this world, that’s for sure.

29

I did rush there, yank them in, and was crying and screaming how scared they made me, and I wasn’t acting. They still went out again. Twice. I am reasonably certain that they will not go out there again, now. Stunningly, they still seem to like me just fine.

So your parents barely tapping you, and only occasionally, emotionally scarred you? I can’t even imagine. It sounds as though you have some serious issues you need to work out if this is the case.

My mom swatted my ass with a wooden spoon when I was 8. While she was doing it, I didn’t protest because she was right, I had done something stupid and dangerous, and I could think of no reason why I shouldn’t be punished for it.

“Some kids are never spanked and still turn out violent!” “Some kids are spanked all the time and turn out fine!” I don’t think these statements say anything about spanking; I think they say something about the great amount of variety found in people.

30

elfje, even in this civilization (the US), people can (and do) raise their children without use of “physical violence”. However, what is the result? As far as I can tell (and this is just opinion/conjecture - no cites to back me up), the unruly children in school increase came soon after spanking was deemed “bad”. Are the high school kids that talk back to teachers a result of no spanking or over spanking? I think no spanking (but I could be wrong). I used to work in a toy store and see the way kids act when parents tried to reason with them - not good.

Your father used to beat the shit out of you. I’m sorry that happened. My father whipped me good once. Sure, it left scars (emotional) but I’ve worked them out. He hit me that time out of fear/anxiety* but the spankings (i.e. one or two hand hits) never left a scar.

  • I was 1978 and I was 7 1/2 years old. Two years prior, my mom’s sister (18 at the time) was kidnapped and murdered. I was out playing one summer and was told to be back by 5:00pm. I told my friend when I had to be back. He said “No problem. I’ve got a watch.” We were having a good time and then I noticed it was getting dark. It was closer to 8:30pm - summertime. My friend had a watch but couldn’t tell time (the bastard). I came home and found out that everybody in the neighborhood and the county police were searching for me. My parents were wrecked in worry. The result, a belt to my bare ass. My father wouldn’t listen to me. I told my mother why I was late. The next day, my father gave me a watch and said he was sorry. While still scarring, I now understand why he acted the way he did. Being a new father myself, I can’t imagine (nor do I want to) what went on in his mind. Can I get off the couch now? :smiley:
31

That’s something I just would not have done as a child. Nor have any children supervised by me defied me in such a way. I’m no psychiatrist and cannot say what would have been right to do here.

As I said, I don’t have children of my own. However, if I do get children I will consider it a great failure if I ever hit them. I don’t want to teach them the use of violence; society will do that for me just fine.

32

You know what? If you only see children in a teaching, clinical, or babysitting situation? I don’t give a rat’s ass what you have to say about raising them.

I’ve had surgeries performed on me. I’ve seen surgeries performed on TV. But if I told a surgeon that I thought I could critique his abilities he would laugh in my face, and rightly so.

So, to all of the people who’ve said “I don’t have children, but…?” I really don’t get much out of your posts other than a high-pitched whistling noise.

Unless, of course, you agree with me. :smiley:

33

Priceguy, I want to sincerely commend you for wanting to not teach your children to use violence. I think a majority of people want to teach the same but have no other way of discipline other than spanking. I know I don’t want to ever spank my child but I realize I might “have to”.

Also, when you have child(ren), if you ever find yourself “having to” spank them,

  1. don’t do it in anger
  2. don’t consider yourself a failure. Already, you are showing signs of better parenting then many I have seen.
34

To be fair, I see your point finally made above, that people can rise above their problems and not suffer the cause and effect you claim. How you know that they therefore succeed ‘in spite of’, rather than ‘because of’ things that happen to them through the course of their development is one educationalists have argued about since the 19th century (at least).

Oh - and notice I can make my point, agree and disagree with people without resorting to childish name calling and slurs. Perhaps you could try it sometime.

35

Hamadryad, I’ve acknowledged that my word doesn’t weigh much in this part of the discussion.

However, I do defend my right to participate in the discussion and offer alternatives. There are objective aspects too, that are not found in some post-birth revelation. To hammer the point home, if it were true that every beaten child became colour-blind at age 20, it would still be right for me to point that out, personal experience of child-raising or no. In the same vein, I’ll continue to point out negative aspects of spanking. But I never claimed to have all the answers.

36

So people who have not been subjected to slaps in the face, or whoppings, or beatings, are by definition “unruly”?
I’m sorry, but I disagree. I stated before that kids need discipline, just not one that’s enforced by muscle talk.

I think more harm is done by slapping kids, than by not slapping them. Anyone can be taught how to behave and listen and respect, it just takes different methods for everyone. Everybody is unique. Have some inspiration, come up with inspired punishments that will teach children something.
The pavlov effect (pain associated with an act, if they do it and get found out), will serve as a deterrent for that act, but will it teach them why it is wrong?

Parents have a lot to answer for, after all, they are ultimately responsible for their kids, and it’s a pity that so many paren’t genuinely think that putting clothes on their backs and and food in their mouths, means “raising them”.

Fact of the matter is, kids are easily influenced, so everyone around them should endeavour to set a good example.

Yes, my father beat the shit out of me, up until I was 14. With his fists, i might add. And there was no reasoning with him.
There still isn’t.
The physical pain has long since forgotten, but the injustice of a grown, bear of a guy, lashing out with all his might at a prepubescent girl, is still very much alive in my memory.
I understood very early on that my father acted like that as a result of his own upbringing (his father whipped him), and thought that whatever he did was perfectly justified. I assume your father apologised for what he did to you.
Mine didn’t. Never has. Actually: you’d have a hard time convincing him he did anything wrong. And that’s why I can’t forgive him: he never admitted he treated me wrong in any way, even claims he didn’t do that badly as a parent.

Funnily enough: none of his kids love him. Wonder why…

37

I’m at work and have no time to provide cites, but does anyone here claim that child-beaters don’t tend to have been beaten as children? If so, I’ll have to rummage through the old archives.

Get off it. If someone, in the Pit, says something that wouldn’t have been said had that person bothered to read the entire post they’re replying to, and then challenges me on totally false premises… I’ll just call a spade a spade, thank you very much. Note that I haven’t been impolite to anyone else, just you.

If you want polite, take this to Great Debates. As for the name-calling, I thought you said “Brainiac” was a compliment?

38

elfje, your earlier post seemed to imply that any violence is bad, which you know, because you’ve been there. However, apparently you were subjected to far more than the mild, occasional spanking…so I don’t know that your experience can be compared in any way to that of a child who received nothing more than a few-and-far-between smack on the buttocks.

39

i posted on the other thread mentioned here, so i guess i’ll weigh in here as well.
are kids people? of course. but we can’t pretend that they have all of the rights of adults without having any of the responsibilities.
beating children is A VERY BAD THING. but i’ve not seen anyone yet advocating it as a parenting strategy. pretty much everyone has pointed out that excessive force, hitting in anger, not linking the punishment to an actual behavior that needs to be stopped, etc. are all bad.

if you do something in my house (destroy property intentionally, vandalize) i have legal recourse to stop you and get my losses back. no such thing with my kids. so, by pretty much every law that i am familiar with, i can both restrain them from their behavior, as well as offer physical deterrance through spanking, whipping, etc.

there might be better ways than spanking to get a point across. that does not mean that spanking (and even whipping with a belt, paddle,spoon) is criminal. it has its limitations- as a child gets older, more ‘adult’ leverage works better, in my experience…but when dealing with irrational individuals (as most young children are), physical pain is the most effective way to get a point across, especially when the pain of something like a smack on the bottom is compared to the pain of getting hit by a car, fire, etc.

so i guess i mostly agree with Lynn and ratty on this one.

and Priceguy- are you arguing that there are no productive uses for violence? how then, will you explain to your young ones about what police and soldiers do? none of us likes to inflict pain on our kids- far from it. but for a lot of us it’s a tradeoff- a little pain now to avoid a LOT of pain later, both physical, financial, emotional, and legal.

40

any violence is bad, especially with kids.

And yes, I was subjected to a bit more violence than the mild, occasional spanking, but my sisters weren’t, and it has affected them, too.

I’ve two elder sisters: they both have a child.
The middle sister has the youngest, and is the only one that’s married. She confessed to me, a few months ago, that since she has a child, the differences between her husband and her were starting to show. (and just as a point of reference: my middle sister was my dad’s apple of his eye. He only gave her the “occasional spanking”, as you put it).
The differences being that she will not think twice and giver her 2 year old a smack on the diaper after she’s been warned 3 or 4 or 5 times not to do something, while it would never enter in her husband’s head to do so.
The 2 year old is now learning the boundaries, she’s testing the limits to see how far she can go. The three most important years for everyone are age 0-3. It’s the formation time, whatever experience you collect in those three years, will largely influence your behaviour for the rest of your life.

In short: my sister smacks her child, simply because it seems “normal” to her (she got the occasional spanking, remember)
Her husband was never physically disciplined (note the use of the word physically), so he sees no reason to do so with his own child.
And you? Will you be more ready to give your child a slap, simply because you’ve been subjected to it?
Want to check with friends of yours who weren’t slapped during childhood, and see if your notes compare?