Hamadryad, that’s a bit unfair. I don’t need to get sick to understand how to prevent it. I don’t need to get hit by a car to know to try to avoid it. And I don’t need kids to have a clue on how to raise them. Also, everyone here was raised by parents (I hope, no offense to those of us raised by wolves) and so we do have an understanding on how to raise kids.
My parents only had to “spank” me once for stealing when I was probably 8 or 9. It wasn’t a real spanking but it certainly left a mental mark. If it had happened more often (for instance, if I had worse parents) then yes, I could see how I’d have become a mean bastard. I think “reasoning” with a kid is the wrong word. More like, non-violent alternatives like grounding, withholding allowance (if you give it) or extra chores. If we can’t hit rapists in jail, why the hell do we let parents hit their own kids?
So, all you folks who claim that any child can be appropriately disciplined without spanking, what would you have done with a kid like me? Grounding me didn’t do jack, as I tended to voluntarily spend a lot of time by myself anyway. Putting me in a time out would have just been more time for me to drift off into LaLa Land, where I spent a lot of time, anyway. I didn’t get an allowance. So what would you have done with me between the ages of 2 and 8?
Okay. Explain which of these methods will keep my three-year-old kid - who is a monkey and more eager to climb trees than you would believe - off of the roof? He doesn’t understand that if he falls he will break his skull open. I can tell him, and he will nod, but at that age they are incapable of grasping a theoretical like that.
If it HAPPENS to them - for instance, if a three-year-old touches a hot stove - he is burned, and understands not to do that again. If you TELL HIM he will burn himself, it does NO GOOD. Now, if you then use that in a similar circumstance, for instance: “If you touch that pot, remember what happened when you got the big ow on your hand from the burner?” wide-eyed nod in response “That’s what will happen if you touch the pot.” eyes go wider, child backs away, probably grabbing my pants and clutching them in one paw
If I tell him and tell him and tell him not to go out on the roof and he does it anyhow, I do not want him to learn what “break your skull” means by doing it. So I tap his ass a couple of times, and he thinks I’m the worst mommy ever, and then we hug each other and I explain that he could get VERY BADLY HURT if he goes out that window, and that is why I will spank him again if he does.
With that, I relate the behavior to a LESSER pain, but one which he understands. We’re hugging, because he wants comfort and I want him to understand that I still love him senseless, and that it was what he DID that made me scared and angry.
Now, if you can think of a more effective way for me to have kept my three-year-old son off of the roof - a REASONABLE one - I’d be absolutely thrilled to hear it. Locking that door? Not an option. Locking the window? The upstairs becomes UNBEARABLE if the windows are kept closed, and one side of that window does have a screen. Following the kids around constantly to make sure they don’t go out that window? Oh, PLEASE. And bear in mind that I have already pointed out and explained and been emphatic and used logic before I have resorted to actually laying a HAND on my son.
I don’t see anything wrong with Hamadryad’s handling of the situation she described. At the beginning of this thread I would have said my spanking days were over when the kids were out of diapers - the shock value alone of a swat on a diapered bottom is what worked, after warning the toddler three or eleven or forty times not to do a particular thing. I doubt they felt anything. And I’ve always been sensitive about yelling - words can hurt badly, too. I know I was spanked when I was little but I have no memory of it; I remember all too well being yelled at. So I rarely yell, using that as a last resort. We are easygoing parents who ended up with easygoing, eager-to-please kids, so it works, and there’s hardly any need for strong disciplinary measures in the first place. I certainly don’t speak for everyone.
If one of my nephews was my child, having some omnipresent need to challenge and defy any authority he encounters, or if I looked one day and saw my kids out on the roof, well…all bets are off. As a Mom I am responsible for keeping their little psyches healthy and happy but I am also responsible for keeping their little butts off the roof and away from dangerous places, period. You have to prioritize.
Every empirical study that’s been done on spanking shows that it has no discernable benefit but has a great potential for harm. Kids who are spanked do lower on IQ tests (repeated spanking engages the fight or flight response rather than enhancing cognitive skills), have a much greater chance of becoming violent adults and they don’t learn right from wrong, they just learn not to get caught. Spanking is an artificial consequence not a natural one. Spanking a kid doesn’t teach them why what they did was wrong, it just teaches them not to get caught at it.
Some pro-spanking studies (as opposed to every study which is not biased towards acheiving a certain result) do show that spanking seems effective in the short-term. It will get the behavior that you want, but in the long term, non-spanking alternatives are better.
And enough of this canard about kids being allowed to run wild without being “disciplines.” The fact is, you don’t know if that kid in the restauraunt gets spanked or not, but either way, not spanking doesn’t mean not teaching discipline. If my daughter is acting up in a public place, we leave. That’s the end of it, and it works. She understands that being in publics requires a certain kind of behavior and we’ve never had to hit her to teach her that.
There may be parents who don’t try to discipline their kids, but the problem is tht they don’t don’t use any techniques, not that they don’t use violence.
Nope. I’m sure I can think up some situation in which I’d participate in the gangrape of a baby too. That doesn’t mean I’m in favor of gangraping babies.
Well, young one, there are bad people in the world, who use violence even though it’s bad. Policemen are needed to stop those bad people from hurting other people.
As for soldiers, I’ll either say it’s the same as the police but on a larger scale, or go into greater detail about what they do and why it’s wrong.
What physical, financial, emotional and legal pain results from not spanking your kids?
On preview: Hamadryad, you make an interesting point and a persuasive argument. Let me think about it for a couple of decades.
Hamadryad, not to be glib about it, but have you considered bolting that window shut? If your kid does happen to climb out of the roof, and fall to the ground, will your reaction be “I didn’t spank him enough” or “I should have done something about that window”?
she states in an earlier post that thge heat upstaris becomes unbearable when the windows are nailed shut.
Maybe airconditioning is the solution, hamadryad?
We rent. Can’t make major modifications. The landlord has his handyman come out to fix things in the house, and the way he put up the screen was to STAPLE it to the outside of the window frame. I’ll get up there and fix it when I have a spotter to get me back off of the roof. The screen, you see, is HANGING off on that side; it is still relatively intact on the other side.
We have full-house A/C; it just doesn’t work very well upstairs. It’s a pretty old house. We can’t afford a window airconditioner, nor the extra hit our pocketbooks would take from running it. Repairing the screen is the best idea - and I will - but they also need to learn not to go out open windows in the first place. Some of our other windows don’t have screens at all. They’re on the first floor - but still dangerous enough.
They open from side-to-side. The entire window is around 90" wide and 30" tall, with each pane of the window half of that, on its own track, easy to open, and difficult to permanently affix. If we didn’t rent, I’d spend the money to put in a whole new frickin’ window. Unfortunately, we are financially unable to do so, and since it is a non-critical repair, it is extremely unlikely that our landlord will do anything about it.
I agree completely, reading over this, that I am very much to blame for not making sure that the screen is secured over the entire length of the window. HOWEVER. The screen broke in the FIRST place because my older son - who is now 8 - tore it out of place climbing out the window. So. Make of that what you will.
(As a side note, my 8-year-old would not dream of climbing out the window any more, and seems to like me a lot.)
On preview, wipe off your mouth, Diogenes. You’re getting spittle everywhere.
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Priceguy * Nope. I’m sure I can think up some situation in which I’d participate in the gangrape of a baby too. That doesn’t mean I’m in favor of gangraping babies.
that’s very classy of you. and it does wonders to support your point.:rolleyes:
What physical, financial, emotional and legal pain results from not spanking your kids?
we’re not talking spank/no spank here. what i’m talking about is making young kids understand that there are unpleasant consequences to behavior from an early age. and yes, a spanking that stops a certain behavior is a lot more pleasant than allowing a child to get hit by a car. yes, ‘the burned hand teaches best,’ but i’ll settle for second best rather than allow my boys the self-discovery of burned hands, mutiliated fingers, and broken skulls. i’d also rather my children refrain from criminal behavior- if the fear of me is all that keeps them in line until they learn for themselves that it is bad, so be it. we do raise our kids and teach them right from wrong, and the long-term consequences of ‘wrong’ behavior. but until that sinks in, whatever gets them to refrain from that behavior is a good thing - whether that is physical or non-physical punishment.
as i think i said earlier, spanking is not as effective with older kids…but if a proper pattern of discipline has been maintained, spanknig should not be necessary past a certain point.
As I said, I don’t think you made the point clearly and I challenged it - I still think you changed your position but that’s neither here nor there.
It’s interesting that people who use the spade analogy almost always turn out to be insular beings who can’t see that anyone else can possibly have an opinion - let alone that theirs might not be the only view in the world.
Oh - and I was being ironic - trying to move the argument away from immature jibes to something a little more useful. Never mind.
One thing that sometimes gets lost: There is no cookie-cutter solution. I have the limited experience of exactly two children, and what worked for one did not work for the other. Kid #1 needed only to be told, “Don’t do that, or I will be very angry.” Never had to give her smack once. Kid #2 presented with the same words basically reacted with the attitude, “Not my problem, go be angry if you want to.” Sterned stuff was mandatory.
Also agree with what’s been previously said about truly dangeous situations. Child is being rude, or doing some socially unacceptable thing, it may be appropriate to remove him from polite society for a while. But if he is approaching the electric socket with a fork in his hand, you smack the dear little hand, and you smack it hard. If he associates the electric socket with pain, well then, fine. Of course you explain. But a newly-toddling baby does not have the memory or the logic yet for that to be sufficient.
Anther extremely important concept is consistency and predictability. Not that you never change your mind. But we’ve all seen parents who give one “warning” after another, plus various threats, and yet there never seem to be any consequences for any kind of misbehavior. Or kids who get told “No,” then whine for a while until Mom or Dad gives in, having just taught them that whining (or tantrums) are what is needed to get what you want.
all hatred has its roots in fear.
Do you really want to take the chance of “doing what’s best for your kid” by inspiring fear?
If fear is the only thing that will work, you have already failed miserable in the education of your child.
I do not think that the end justifies the means. There are enough alternatives around to teach children how to behave and adhere to rules and regulations.
Just be a little inventive, and dare think outside the box.
As does your failure to capitalize and use the tags properly. By the way, stupid questions get stupid answers.
Well, if you feel the most important thing is to teach them that bad behaviour can have unpleasant consequences for them, rather than teach them why bad behaviour is wrong, then I suppose spanking is the best method there is. You might want to follow Diogenes’s links, though.
Duke, elfje and Diogenes, I’m on your side in the argument, but please lay off the window thing. This thread is not about Hamadryad’s windows, and it’s pointless discussing it anyway since she is the only one here with any knowledge about them whatsoever. She’s not stupid and has probably considered the problem.
She is not the only one here with any knowledge about the children. I know her very well, and I know her family. She is a fantastic mother, much better than I consider myself to be. When she has to spank, it is because there is no other recourse available to her at all. Yes, the window needs to be fixed. Yes, the two little ones need to stay the hell inside the room. No, it doesn’t make her a bad person or a bad mother if she thinks that a swat on their butts will help them remember.
scuse me, but I clarified something to Duke about hamadryad’s windows, at the same time proposing a solution.
that is the only time I replied to hamadryad about her window.
So i never lay it on her to begin with.
She did not strike me as stupid, and I assumed she had considered the problem, as its the lives of her kids that’s at stake.
So forgive me for posting 1(!) post in regards with hamadryad’s windows.
If you mean that my new position is that people don’t necessarily become fucked up due to unpleasant childhood experiences, I made that point clear in my first post.
If you mean that I am one of those beings, back it up or shut up. I did say “Hamadryad, you make an interesting point and a persuasive argument”. I meant it too. I’m fully able to see other people’s point or view, but there’s no fucking way I’ll say they’re right when they’re wrong.
