Your children are people!

The BBQ Pit
61

Many things that look good in theory do not work in practice.
Sometimes fear is needed. Because I am afraid of being killed or injured in an auto accident. Because of that I don’t tailgate or otherwise drive aggressively, and so on. Because I am afraid of dying in a fire, I make sure the smoke detectors in my house work. I am very afraid of strange snarling dogs. I stay away from them. Anyone who is not afraid of anything is going to have either a very short or a very lucky life; let’s not leave our children to the latter option.

In an ideal world, you would explain about how cars can squash you flat, and fire can mutilate your hands, and the two-year-old would listen and remember and follow your advice. In reality, two-year-olds are mostly programmed into a stage called individuation, wherein they mostly test out EVERY SINGLE THING YOU SAY to see if it’s really true and if you really mean it. For very important things, you sometimes have to back it up with a punishment. When really quick results are necessary, sometimes you have to make an instantaneous and memorable one.

elfje, I don’t know how old you are or how many children you’ve raised. If the answer to the second question is zero, good luck, and check back when your children are 19. I don’t doubt your sincerity or good intentions, but some things are easier said than done.

62

So, just a few thought here. If we are going to state that folks who have not raised children have nothing to contribute to this topic, I would also propose that folks who were abused as children have nothing to contribute either.

Please don’t misunderstand; I am very sorry for what happened to you. No child should be abused, or have to live in fear. That being said, it seems that this past experience has made some folks take these huge leaps of logic that really do not have much to do with the topic being discussed.

What folks are saying is that sometimes a swift swat on the butt can be a very effective teaching tool and that it is indeed called for in some rare occasions. As long as the parent is doing so without anger, in a safe was so as not to injure the child and in a manner that is though out and logical. I am thinking specifically of the running in to traffic or little hand on a hot stove example.

What people are not saying is that we want to beat the shit out of our kids, fly planes in to skyscrapers, gang rape toddlers or molest nuns while wearing SS uniforms and whacking off. Taking the debate to that level makes you sound like a hysteric.

63

Well, I’ve never HAD children, but I have helped raise one. I wasn’t the primary caregiver, but she and I spent a lot of time together from 6 months to 2 and a half years. Her mother worked all day, and I was one of the people who kept an eye on her during the days.

Ai yai. She was a handful and a half. I know I wasn’t this nuts, if my mother’s stories are any judgment.

“Ronnie, no. Leave that cup alone.”

(Ronnie looks at me, grins, and pulls it closer.)

“Ronnie, no! You’ll spill it all over the floor.”

(Ronnie is now ignoring me, and has the cup in both hands. I stomp up and pull it out of her hands.)

“No!”

(Ronnie collapses on the floor in tears. I put the cup in the kitchen and come back and cuddle the child)

“You are not supposed to play with cups, Ronnie. You’ll make a mess. You’ll spill all over the place.”

(Tears commence even harder, child begins to scream. There is a difference in the scream of a child who is injured or afraid and a child who is angry and wants to be catered to. Ronnie now wants to be catered to.)

Swatting her little hand when she does something naughty works ten times better. She looks terribly startled, and she begins to weep. Then I sweep her up and speak to her gently, saying mostly the same stuff I said above. She clings to my shirt for a little while, then the sobs subside.

“You okay now, Ronnie?”

“'es.”

“Are you going to do that anymore?”

“No.”

“Good girl. You’re a very good girl, Ronnie.”

Big smiles all 'round, and she goes to play with her dolls.

So. Was the swat on the hand abusive?

64

Empirical studies show that this is bullshit.

65

I was spanked as a child. Only once but it sure had its desired effect on me. I stopped and never ever did it again. And I’m sure as heck not emotionally scarred because of it. Mostly it was the threat of a spanking or something painful that made me stop. No other way managed to put it in terms quite as effectively. My parents tried every way imaginable. They took away my meager allowance, they grounded me, took away my books, took away tv time, etc. Sometimes those punishements worked. Other times they didn’t. My brother was worse- and I had strict parents.

No child is the same. What works for others doesn’t work for all. Sometimes all effective measures have been carried out and the child still misbehaves. If a swat on the hand or butt is what it takes, as a last resort, then it should be used. Some kids really don’t get it until they feel that sting.

I remember reading a scene in one of the “Anne of Green Gables” books about her being completely against corporal punishment. There was one student that would not obey her no matter what she tried. She ended up whipping him a bit and that changed everything. He become a better student and was more appreciative of her. Now, this isn’t the case for all, but I just wanted to illustrate that there are some kids that just won’t take no for an answer and some sort of demonstrative means is needed to make them realize that.

66

We have put a fucking screen on the window, as you state. Doesn’t do much good when they knock it right out to get to the roof of the garage.

The window’s dimensions are about 6 feet long by two feet high, with each side sliding open. No top or bottom.

67

Anne of Green Gables is fucking FICTION for Christ’s sake. What does that fucking prove?

68

I was using it to illustrate a point. Fiction often mirrors real life. Not always, but there are tons of stories out there that do. I know several kids just like the one in that story, in fact I baby-sat for a kid just like that. No matter what his parents did, he wouldn’t listen. A smack on the butt and lo and behold, he stopped misbehaving. And trust me when I say the parents tried everything. Same went with my brother.

69

Telling parents not to spank their kids.

I guess imposing one’s morals on someone else is OK, if it’s your morals? :dubious:

70

Look, I have read a good portion of your cites from earlier in this thread. The problem is that I am pretty sure that we are talking apples and oranges here. The cites that you have chosen to share with us all seem to be talking about the use of spanking as a main or at least frequent tool for teaching kids right from wrong or general discipline. Moreover, a good portion of the cites that you list that have experts decrying the use of spanking also have experts cited later in the article that disagree. I would also point out that, especially in the second link that you provided (the About page with several links) many of these articles are talking about abuse (as opposed to spanking, and there is a distinction).

I guess that what I am saying is that the jury really still seems to be out on this one (although it is very clear to me that you feel differently about this).

Perhaps we are talking about two different things. So, allow me to clarify. What I am talking about is the use of a swat to the bottom as an immediate negative reinforce for a pre-abstract though aged child as a means to train them to avoid physical danger. That is all. This would include things like running out in traffic, and reaching for burning things/knives and so forth. This leaves everything else on the non-physical lever (teaching right from wrong, general socializing and so forth).

And see, this is the thing, when it comes to dangerous situations I want instant obedience. If my kid is about to run in to the street, or grab the teakettle, I want the lesson not to do this to take the very first time that I give it. To do this, I will damn well use a millions of years old pro-survival mechanism as a teaching tool. To discard such a well developed mechanism built in to my child’s genes seems negligent and foolish.

71

Diogenes the Cynic, you’ve cited the same study twice (actually, not the study, but news coverage of the study), and some other studies that discuss spanking or beating when used as something OTHER THAN a last resort. Read the shit you linked to. Parents who spank their child more than twice a week are hardly using spanking as a last resort-- they’re using it as a primary method of discipline. Of the people in this thread supporting spanking, they are supporting it a) as a last resort, ** b) in conjunction with other methods of discipline, and c) ** as a method for children with whom other methods have failed. Quit frothing at the mouth and pay attention.

As others have repeatedly pointed out, different methods work on different kids. My brother never needed to be spanked a single time. My sister got a few swats, and I was the all-time champion of deliberate defiance. I got spanked with a wooden spoon a few times, and this was after my Mom reasoning with me, clearly laying out rules, counting to three to give me time to obey (including fractions-- “two and three quarters…”) and so on. I had every opportunity in the world to be obedient, as well as a clear understanding of why I should be. Didn’t matter. I would look her in the eye and do whatever it was I wasn’t supposed to. My IQ is undamaged (I was in gifted programs all through school), my relationship with my parents is very strong and very loving, and I’m not remotely violent.

So. Some empirical studies may show that spanking doesn’t work, but even in the ones you cited, experts DO SUPPORT mild to moderate spanking in conjunction with other forms of discipline. And there’s a whole shitload of anecdotal evidence from parents and adult children who say that spanking worked for them. I think that’s pretty telling.

72

I’ve read this whole thread and I really don’t know what to say.

In every experience of mine, discipline without violence works just fine. I’m not going to pull out a whole list of experiences with young, rambunctious children, nor am I going to brag about how effective I am with toddlers.

The point is that, if they’re having fun while disobeying, you’ve taught them that disobeying you is fun. Children don’t grow up in a vacuum! A naturally disobedient child is RARE, I’ve seen a lot of “disobedient” children who are perfectly polite to adults when given the right sort of opportunity.

Anyway, this isn’t a parenting thread. YMMV. I just wanted to throw my support behind the non-spankers.

73

There’s a lot mor data than what I posted, I just grabbed some cites at random. Furthermore, you won’t find a single study that will show that spanking is ever preferable to non-spanking.

I’m sure you know that anecdotal evidence is not evidence.

74

Trouble is, if you Google and then just grab a bunch of cites at random that seem to support your stance, you don’t get to make statements that the positions that are being put forward by others has been empirically proven to be bullshit. That is very, very sloppy and disingenuous. It looks especially bad given that half of the stuff that you linked to is not related to the topic at hand (spanking) and many of the cites contain experts that disagree with each other.

On top of that, you defiantly don’t get to tell others what constitutes evidence and what does not because it is clear from the way that you are presenting your case that you don’t know.

75

I wonder if there ARE any studies which include the group, “people who were only occasionally tapped on the ass, and only as a last resort?” Don’t studies like that normally mention extremes of behavior?

Me, I’m too busy doing this parenting gig to second-guess myself all the time. My dad never laid a hand on me. However, I am far more angered by and isolated from him. I have no idea for what study I should submit myself to get data to which Diogenes will listen.

76

Just for an interesting tidbit (I am not sure what this means, not am I stating causality)it seems that child abuse and instances of assaults by minors has skyrocketed in Sweden after they outlawed spanking in 1979

Now, before anyone starts screaming (though given the sloppy cites so far, it would be to laugh), I realize that the article that I cited is from a private Christian University and, as such, may have some bias. That being said, as far as I can tell at least their statistical methodology seems pretty sound.

77

So, is anyone going to take me up on my question? Anybody?

What would you guys have done with a kid like me, who’d been warned repeatedly, was deliberately doing something wrong, and under the age of 8? Most of the methods suggested wouldn’t have phased me a bit. And don’t give me any of that vague “think outside the box” “find a creative punishment” stuff either, I’d like to hear concrete suggestions.

Grounding is useless, as are revoking allowance or television priveleges and assigning extra chores. Take away my books? Well, then I’ll just sit and daydream like I do a lot of the time anyway. What then, confiscate my brain?

78

Sure, I will take a run at answering this. I would sit you down and talk about how your behavior made me feel, you know, try to show you that I am really your friend and not some authoritarian monster. We would share, and with any luck have a moment during this quality time and then depart with mutual respect for each other’s self-actualizing anima. It really would be a healing experience.

As we all know, human beings are born with the ability to distinguish right from wrong, so I just know that appealing to your better nature would have worked.

Seriously, though, I am sure that you would have gotten a smack on the ass a time or two as my child.

79

Yeah! If you take away eerything the kid owns and leave them with a bed, a dresser, and that’s it - sorta military style - THEN they’ll sure learn to behave! And I’m sure living like they’re in boot camp won’t cause anything LIKE the same resentment that a tap on the ass would.

:rolleyes:

(Not rolling my eyes at you, CrazyCatLady, MOST assuredly.)

80

It sounds like I was much like you, and actually, my parents did just that. It was in 5th grade, and I discovered that I could hide a reading book inside my schoolbook and ignore the teacher (and what do you know, I got that idea out of a book) and I’d read instead of doing homework. So my parents boxed up all of my books and put them in the basement. They wouldn’t let me bring library books home, either. I think I got caught once trying to do that. Looking back, I think it’s pretty funny that my parents were actually hiding books from me.