Diogenes, have you read the APA link I keep posting which addresses the Gershoff study? It appears that Gershoff has some pretty serious bias on the issue (basically, it’s more complicated than simply “corporal punishment is bad”). The APA analysis points out that
Gershoff concluded that the risks of corporal punishment outweigh the benefits. But others point out that the study included much more than spanking. For instance, the claim that “65 percent of the studies included overly severe punishment” where spanking is defined as
I think it works for some kids, but not for others. Diogenes the Cynic, by saying ‘anecdotal evidence is not evidence’ you are implying that the posters in this thread who have said spanking had worked are lying.
Because spanking seems to be sporadically effective, I don’t think any ‘research’ on the matter could be definitive in finding a correlation between spanking and violence.
The only boundary that some children will acknolege/follow is physical force. I don’t consider it barbaric to use what works in the appropriate situation.
I came from a odd family where I experienced both getting spanked and getting beat.
Example 1 - When I was four, my mother and I were grocery shopping. The rule was that I could pick out one thing that my mother agreed with, and that’s what I’d get. I spotted a box of Dreamsicles that I wanted. I asked, and my mother said “No. We don’t have the money to pay $3.99 for those. Pick something else.” For whatever reason, I had to have the Dreamsicles. I asked again and she said “No, Elizabeth. They’re too expensive. Let’s look for another type of ice cream.” At this point, (and this was extremely uncommon of me–still have no idea what got into me), I was working up to a boil. So I proceeded to scream and cry for my precious Dreamsicles. She promptly turned around, gave me a stinging smack on the ass and said “You are to ask for something once. If we can afford it, and it’s alright for you to have, you’ll have it. If I say no, then it’s no.” I immediately ceased my wailing and I never threw a fit in the grocery store again.
Example 2 - Dad had a few two many, as he was wont to do, and he was a mean sonofabitch when he was drunk. I was around 4 or 5 in this incident, also. I climbed under the desk to retrieve a marker, and getting back up, knocked a bottle of Windex on the floor, spilling it everywhere. Dad then proceeded to pick me up and casually toss me through the nearest wall. Panelling broke and the whole bit. Needless to say, I was pissing cranberry juice for a week. Here’s a clue, Dad–getting some paper towels and making me clean it up would have required a lot less effort, and you wouldn’t have even had to sit your drink down.
:rolleyes:
Now–I’m not looking for sympathy. Hey, shit happens and then you live. Point? I can look back and laugh and say “Man, I needed my ass whipped for that.” I can also look back and say “You assholistic motherfucker, may you burn in the fiery pits of hell.”
I think Gershoff has a point. The best the pro-spanking side can do is show that it’s not always harmful. There’s not a single study that shows that spanking is ever preferrable.
Which exactly zero people in this thread have claimed. Spanking is never preferable to other options, but when other options fail or aren’t available, spanking becomes viable. Again, I think everyone in this thread that isn’t anti-spanking have said that it is to be used as a last resort, in conjunction with other methods of discipline, and as a method for children with whom other methods have failed. It’s never preferable, but it can be the only thing that works.
It would be nice if, in child-rearing, parents had time to reward only. That’s not possible in situations where the child is in danger, or the child refuses to obey. Look at CrazyCatLady and me. We were both apparently children for whom non-corporeal punishment wasn’t effective. I loved time-outs. Being grounded was a nice quiet time for me to read, daydream, write poems and build forts. Losing my allowance didn’t faze me (I’ve always been terrible with money). Having my parents explain their pain and frustration to me didn’t get through.
You wind up with the punishment that fits the child; if the punishment isn’t really a punishment to that child, it’s not going to work. My parents really, honestly tried everything else for major offences and didn’t get through. They were excellent at finding ways to get me to do the right thing without punishment or with nothing more than a verbal rebuke for most things, and they rewarded good behavior regularly with hugs, kisses, compliments, treats, you name it. But when I chose to pitch my battles, a spanking was the only thing that would stop me.
So, just asking here, but would you state that survey or polling data is or is not scientifically valid? And if so, at what level of sampling does it become so (for example, one guy states that he was spanked and that it did no harm. Obviously this is just an opinion. 100 people? 1000? At what point will you consider this to be a valid data point?)
Polling is not the way to gather this kind of information because there’s no way of verifying the reliability of data being reported.
You don’t find out if smoking is bad by calling people who smoke and asking them if they’ve had adverseb effects. that would not be meaningful. Polling is useful for opinions only.
Wrong. If I call 1000 people and ask them the following:
[list=1]
[li]Do you smoke?[/li][li]For how long have you smoked?[/li][li]Do you have lung cancer?[/li][li]Had any heart attacks?[/li][li]Have you had bronchitis in the last year?[/li][li]Have you had an upper repository infection in the past year?[/li][/list=1]
And so on, and then tabulated that data, I would start to get a pretty good idea if my hypothesis that smoking is bad for humans is valid. To state that you cannot get statistically solid evidence from surveys is, I am sorry to say, crap.
While it is true that the primary use for polls and surveys is to gather opinions, they do have valid data collection functions as well.
To look at this another way, in examining your statement that (at least for spanking) you can’t determine that the data being reported is accurate, perhaps then you could suggest a proper methodology.
My hypothesis: Spanking (defined as non-injuring striking delivered to a child’s clothed bottom in a premeditate fashion (not out of anger or frustration)) has no discernable negative consequences in the long term, and as such is a valid tool for discipline.
But wait Diog, when it comes to this issue, those who are pro-beating (or snicker spanking) consider their opinions to be facts.
…and if you don’t listen to me - JUST WAIT 'TIL YOUR FATHER GETS HOME!
[sup]Still amazed at how otherwise intelligent people can show their true colors when it comes to the child-beating issue. I’ll pray for you guys - and your children.[/sup]
SkidRow, I am 100% sure that you have head this before, but you are an idiot.
Spanking is not illegal; therefore people who spank are not criminals. That wasn’t so hard, now was it? You may not agree with it as a valid form of discipline, but that does not give you the right to fling around false accusations.
Peeps, it’s not a case of either hit your kids senseless or do nothing.
My parents used ALL methods-the worst I ever got was a slap across the face for calling my parents assholes when I was a mouthy teen. But other than that, the only “spanking” I got was a swat on the fanny or a quick slap on the wrist. Didn’t hurt-it was more of a shock. Then, followed by a lecture.
Time outs, groundings, and the dreaded YELLING were enough, usually. I think swats should only be used to make a QUICK point, rather than a punishment, and then a lecture. Then severe time outs and grounding.
For those who say time outs aren’t punishment enough, obviously you have forgotten being a child. What was worse than sitting and watching your friends play and having to STAY STILL. And Mom would never tell me how long I had to sit-it was until she told me I could get up. Taking away priveledges and toys also worked.
For tantrums, the BEST method, though, is nothing at all. Let them cry it out. That’s what my parents did. If we were in public, I was taken out of the way, to the car, or wherever, and if we were at home my mom just went into the other room. Usually I’d end up with the hiccoughs and a bruised ego.
I don’t think anyone here is beating their kids! However, those who don’t spank also are not necessarily letting their children run wild. Not all methods work with all kids. And sometimes a certain punishment can’t be used-like say you have a hemophilliac. You can’t spank or swat a hemophilliac. D’uh.
Although I was an occasional ‘spanker’, I don’t know whether that recourse would have worked with a kid like you CCL. There are some children who resist any sort of punishment, and while a goodly smack MIGHT have worked, it might also have been as ineffective as other more ‘civilised’ methods. Let’s face it…you were just a little bastard of a kid.
Seriously though, I’m not sure if I agree with smacking/spanking as a punishment, but I do agree with it as a sort-of ‘cause and effect’ treatment. The old notion of ‘wait until your father gets home’ probably did instil fear and loathing into many children through the ages, and was probably more brutal than it needed to be. But a swift slap on the bum or hand immediately after having committed some childish crime would certainly make the culprit think twice next time without having too many psychic repercussions.
And again…for those who think a spank on the bottom or slap on the hand/leg equates beating-up a child, please get some perspective.
Ummm… can I say something here? I don’t think this is always the case…
Theres a guy I know with the sweetest, caring, understanding hippy parents. They have never raised a hand to him in anger… I mean, they left him a “stern note” for stealing their van, for crying out loud. Totally anti-violence, hell, they don’t even eat meat. This boy’s got no respect for them, or for any authority.
This is also the guy who choked me till I passed out.
If you follow Priceguy’s model, how does this happen? This guy had no “abusive” model to teach him violence, but the little bone on the front of my throat is still clicking around back and forth.
Actually, I was more afraid of my parents YELLING than I was of them smacking me. My dad has what I call his “Dad Look”-EXTREMELY pissed off with nothing more than a wrinkling of the eye brows. My dad is six-three, and in pretty good shape. If you were a small child and he gave you that look, it would be enough to send you screaming to your mommy!
This is the kind of thing that makes me, as a scientist, weep for the future of the human race. It should be quite obvious that science, in fact, relies on anecdote. If you do not understand this, I invite you to consider the existence, role, and nature of scientific meetings and publications.
If you still don’t understand this simple truth, you’re probably beyond help.
Another thing to keep in mind is that parents probably don’t have as much influence on how their children “turn out” as we assume they do. Check out The NURTURE ASSUMPTION: Why Children Turn Out the Way They Do by Judith Harris for an interesting evaluation, based on a LOT of research, for another view of the issue.
You would still have no way of knowing how acuurate or factual your data was. You can’t take people’s word for things.
The way legitimate studies are done on these things is to do extensive psychological profiles of adults who were spanked as children and adults who were not. There is a significant amount of data that the repeated triggering of the fight or flight response in children (which is what spanking does) results in permanent changes in brain chemistry. These changes can inur the victim to violence and inhibit the development of an empathetic response. Cognitive develpment is also inhibited.
It really doesn’t matter if you think you’re administering your beatings responsibly or not. If you’re triggering adrenaline and fearing, you’re doing more harm than good.
g8rguy, what the hell are you talking about. If you’re really a scientist then you know that anecdotes from spankers have no probative value into a question like this. No abuser ever iadmits*they’re an abuser. Their “testimony,” as it were, is totally unreliable and statistically worthless.
